1/50th or 1/60th-which is more film-like?

B

BrianBrook

Active member
I've heard opposing opinions but specifically for the GH-1 @ 1080/24P using Neoscene I wonder what the concensus is on this board with users trying to get as film-like as possible? I'm waiting on a new card and ND filter to make my tests but would appreciate other users input here.
 
I can't tell a difference between them. I think it's mostly the composition of the shots. And for some reason, I get less mud with 1/60 vs 1/50. But I'm just a nobody. I'm sure someone with much experience will chime in.
 
Brian-

when shooting 1080p24 use 1/50, you'll see much more filmic motion blur whilst shooting- but will have to remove pulldown in post since it's in a 60i wrapper.
when shooting 720p60 use 1/60, it will look very 'video-like' whilst shooting, just drop into 24p timeline...it will look good. *(This is also advantageous if you want to overcrank, or slo-mo your footy), as you have 60 fps in which you are only using 24 for realtime playback- (filmic look), or you can use all 60 frames in a 24p timeline to slow down footage with a nice smooth feel.--there's a sticky on all of this good stuff here in the forum

cheers!
 
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You should not be able to tell the difference between 1/50th and 1/60th. No one in your audience will. Don't let anyone else tell you otherwise.

You should be careful if you're going to be using 1/50th a lot. Most of the time, it should be OK, but if you're in a place with ballasted light sources, such as streetlights and fluorescents, then you'll see a disconcerting "scrolling line" artifact in your footage. 1/60th shutter will prevent that.
 
1/50 more closely resembles the shutter speed of a motion picture camera, which is 1/48 of a second. Be careful with 1/50th, however, when shooting indoors as household electricity runs on 60Hz, so fluorescent lighting and TV screens can flicker at 1/50th. To be safe, shoot at 1/60th when fluorescent lighting or any non-continuous light source is around.
Also, when shooting 720p60 for intentional use as slo-mo, the shutter speed should be 1/125th to get the best look. The shutter speed should always be twice the frame rate for the most film-like results.
 
dvbrother said:
1/50 more closely resembles the shutter speed of a motion picture camera, which is 1/48 of a second.
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Common misconception. Film cameras have many, many different shutter speeds. I've owned maybe a couple dozen motion picture cameras, and I can't think of a single one that had a default 1/48th shutter. I've rattled 'em off before, but for example: Konvas is 150 degrees, CP16/R is 144, 156, or 170 degrees, Filmo is 240 degrees, most Super8 film cameras with XL designations are 220 degrees, Krasnogorsk K-3 was (I think) 170 degrees, and on and on. Okay, I take that back; I think my original CP16 was 180 degrees. But still, only film cameras with 180-degree shutters have a 1/48 exposure.

180-degrees (aka 1/48) is common, but it's by no means the only speed. 1/60th will look filmic, just like 1/50th, just like 1/48, just like 1/45.

Be careful with 1/50th, however, when shooting indoors as household electricity runs on 60Hz, so fluorescent lighting and TV screens can flicker at 1/50th. To be safe, shoot at 1/60th when fluorescent lighting or any non-continuous light source is around.
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Absolutely, and this is why I strongly recommend any USA shooter to use 1/60th instead of 1/50th as their default. Practically nobody will be able to tell the difference, but 1/60th will keep you out of trouble, whereas 1/50th can cause problems.

Also, when shooting 720p60 for intentional use as slo-mo, the shutter speed should be 1/125th to get the best look. The shutter speed should always be twice the frame rate for the most film-like results.
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Yes, as a general rule.
 
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Ive shot 1/60th for 24p and their is no doubt a *slight* noticeable difference between 1/50th and 1/48th it adds a slight more strobe to the footage. No doubt 1/50th would be more of the "filimic motion blur" your referring to. If you do decide to use the 60p slow motion make sure you have at least 125th shutter speed for "proper slow motion" although you may go higher. If you are going for the 60p to 24p conversion shoot with 1/60th shutter.
 
dvbrother said:
Be careful with 1/50th, however, when shooting indoors as household electricity runs on 60Hz, so fluorescent lighting and TV screens can flicker at 1/50th. To be safe, shoot at 1/60th when fluorescent lighting or any non-continuous light source is around.
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This makes sense when shooting an NTSC (US model) GH1 in 60hz lighting, but was is the best shutter speed if shooting the same US model GH1 in a PAL country, where the current is 50hz?

I've got a shoot coming up with this same situation, and I'm more concerned with eliminating the flourescent flicker than film look, although it will be great if I hit both birds with one stone.

I can't remember what I used to do to solve this when I was shooting with a US-model PD170 in a 50Hz location - I think I set the shutter at 1/100 or I may have set it at 1/30.
 
RandyQ said:
This makes sense when shooting an NTSC (US model) GH1 in 60hz lighting, but was is the best shutter speed if shooting the same US model GH1 in a PAL country, where the current is 50hz?
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It's simple and logical. You use 1/50. But using the NTSC model is a bad idea, because although 1/50th shutter is correct, there might still be problems due to the frame rate. And no shutter speed will overcome that.
 
Barry_Green said:
Common misconception. Film cameras have many, many different shutter speeds.
180-degrees (aka 1/48) is common, but it's by no means the only speed. 1/60th will look filmic, just like 1/50th, just like 1/48, just like 1/45.
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Thanks for clearing that up, Barry. I guess my knowledge about film shutter speed was incomplete. I think I will stick to 1/60th more often to avoid problems.
 
alignment1 said:
no worries there.... go here

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=206788

for the NTSC>PAL patch:smile: problem solved
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I considered that, but as Tester13 pointed out, you can't switch it back (at least not in this version). I shoot in PAL places then fly out to shoot/edit in NTSC countries for the same project all the time so its not a simple shoot in PAL or NTSC thing.

In fact I wonder what the right workflow for something like that? Mixed stuff like that is the story of my life.

rgds/ RandyQ
 
There is 10th of a second difference between exposure on 1/60 vs 1/50th shutter which will translate into in a very very slight, but measurable increase in motion blur on moving objects in an exact measurable ratio. Put cam in 24 p mode, and film a contrasty thing going by horizontally at the same speed twice, once at 1/50 shutter and once at 1/60 shutter.
Of course to do this scientifically you have to make sure the camera is mounted on a tripod and the object going by moves at the exact same rate each time. Like a small white cap or stick on a treadmil.

You'll notice the motion blur trail is about 1/10th longer on the 24p with the 1/50th shutter.

NOT a huge difference, but its there.
 
Blackout said:
There is 10th of a second difference between exposure on 1/60 vs 1/50th shutter which will translate into in a very very slight, but measurable increase in motion blur on moving objects in an exact measurable ratio. Put cam in 24 p mode, and film a contrasty thing going by horizontally at the same speed twice, once at 1/50 shutter and once at 1/60 shutter.
Of course to do this scientifically you have to make sure the camera is mounted on a tripod and the object going by moves at the exact same rate each time. Like a small white cap or stick on a treadmil.

You'll notice the motion blur trail is about 1/10th longer on the 24p with the 1/50th shutter.

NOT a huge difference, but its there.
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not a mathematician here but I'm thinkin it's more like 1/250 of a second difference between 1/60 and 1/50.

As 1/10 of a second is much larger than say 1/50 or 1/60 of a second:

1/50 = .02
1/60 = .016

.02 - .016 = .004

.004 = 1/250 :lipsrseal:lipsrseal:lipsrseal

anyhow- even the though the amount of difference is real small--I agree w/ blackout....there is a noticeable difference:cheesy:
 
oops yes, you are correct it's actually a 0.019 difference..

anyway the blur trail of a white stick on a black background is slightly longer
 
I really don't see how you could spot a difference, unless you're incredibly used to 1/50th or 1/48th shutter, or if you compared side-by-side with 1/60th. Most people fail to see a difference when converting 60p to 24p simply by dropping frames. In that case, whatever difference that can seen is due to the slightly irregular cadence, which might somehow feel "wrong" or "odd." I can't see how slight differences in motion blur would be felt the same way.
 
I agree 1/60 shutter is safer than 1/50 and still looks film-like. I also doubt 99% of audience would notice any difference if any.
 
Based on the info presented and a few quick tests, I've officially changed from 1/50 to 1/60 for my project. I'm trying to eliminated as many potential technical problems in the learning curve for this camera as unforseen and/or uncontrollable events manifest on every shoot!
 
not only is it hardly noticeable
really depends on the scene
if its a tight shot of a face.. it wont make a noticeable difference
not on a wide shot with no motion

maybe fast motions but hardly noticeable
 
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