1.3 Prime Set possibility?

T

tonacidigital

Well-known member
"We are considering (don't count this as an announcement) a full set of T1.9 primes. We just need to make sure there is enough of a market for them.
Jim"

Thanks in part to 35mm adaptors like this:
http://www.pstechnik.de/en/digitalfilm-pro35-converter.php

"Get the three-dimensional quality of 35mm film by using a 2/3" HD or SD video camera with the PRO35 Image Converter. Hundreds of lens choices, formerly the realm of 35mm film are now available for video production."

There has been a huge demand for high speed lenses due to the stop of light that is lost as a result of these adaptors.

The used Zeiss Super Speed 1.3 Pl SETS skyrocketed in price ever since the mini 35 came out. Every shop I spoke with told me that these sets are in extremely high demand and are very scarce. One shop owner told me that a couple of years ago the lenses went for 15,000 a set and no one would buy them.. now they get calls from all over the world asking about the lenses. They go for around 25,000 now. One place said that if they did get any in, they would not be hesitant to attempt selling the sets for 30,000 because people are willing to pay that price to get them. The current Master primes, which are at 1.3, range from 17,000 to 25,000 each so there are no affordable (by affordable i mean..not requiring 100,000 for a set) alternatives for super speed 1.3 35mm primes.

Going back to the possibility of a RED 1.9 prime set, I think if RED were to make faster speed prime lens set (perhaps 1.3) and price it between 20,000-25,000 it would be able to penetrate the current used super speed zeiss prime set market. Of course, this price point may not even be possible due to the costs of developing and producing the lenses.. I am just throwing out some ideas. Although cine lens companies like Zeiss or Cooke have been around for ages, I wouldn't at all be surprised if RED could match or exceed their lenses in quality given RED's ability to create a camera that is, according to what we have seen, superior to Sony and Panasonic's current offerings at a fraction of the cost. As Jim pointed out, I guess it comes down to balancing the amount of money required to put into R&D for the lenses and figuring out how many lenses need to be sold (and estimating the demand for them) to justify producing them.

I was cruising through the Zeiss website an ran into this:
http://www.arri.com/infodown/cam/poster/mp_poster_breathtaking.pdf

I am already convinced that RED has fantastic low light capability as evidenced by the Porsche 959 shot, but it would still be interesting to see how clean RED's image would be using a 1.3 Master Prime. One things for sure..it won't be as grainy.

Anyways..if RED ever makes even the 1.9 prime set , I would definitely be interested in a quality alternative to Cooke s4s or Master Primes that won't cost me 100,000 to purchase.
 
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Possibly the reason the prospective set is 1.9 as opposed to 1.3 is the cost difference to get it down that half stop extra would be financially prohibitive?
 
acoreasc said:
Possibly the reason the prospective set is 1.9 as opposed to 1.3 is the cost difference to get it down that half stop extra would be financially prohibitive?
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Hi,

It's over 1 stop difference, 1.3-1.83 is one full stop.

In theory a lens should be of higher quality if it is not faster than necessary. The light has to pass through more glass with a faster lens. I do realise the Master Primes are the shapest lenses around but they are also the most expensive.

Stephen
 
acoreasc said:
Possibly the reason the prospective set is 1.9 as opposed to 1.3 is the cost difference to get it down that half stop extra would be financially prohibitive?
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Perhaps the RED's great low light capability negates the need for the extra stop.
 
I think that in nights 1 stop can be the difference between extra lights or no extra lights along with the problems derived from it.
 
Well I can't see much sense for red to make lenses for 35mm adapters, since they plan on rendering them obsolete...

But anyway, a set of 1.9 primes seem like a very good idea. But it has to be cheaper than the zoom to have enough market penetration, and I think that should be kind of hard... But anyway, I still think 2K for each lens is too much for them to be sucessful, and I fear what quality they could be if they cost much less... But I'd keep my eyes open...
 
taubkin said:
Well I can't see much sense for red to make lenses for 35mm adapters, since they plan on rendering them obsolete... ...
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Good point. The adaptor + hd camera comes close to the RED ONE itself in some cases.

Also, my suggestion was not to have a set created for the sole purpose of fulfilling this market, I was pointing out the interesting demand for super speed zeiss prime sets...and that if RED were to create a faster lens, not only would it be desired by anyone who was looking for a quality 35mm primes len set, it would probably be also desired by the same users who are shopping for fast t1.3 lenses.

taubkin said:
But anyway, a set of 1.9 primes seem like a very good idea. But it has to be cheaper than the zoom to have enough market penetration, and I think that should be kind of hard... ...
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taking a look at Cooke s4s vs their zoom.. a complete prime set will most likely always exceed their zoom counterparts. I think that 20,000 would be quite low for an entire set of 5 primes if they are going to be comparable to Zeiss or Cooke which cost around 20,000 each.
 
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tonacidigital said:
Good point. The adaptor + hd camera comes close to the RED ONE itself in some cases.
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I've been seeing this a lot on the forums lately, but I don't think it's very accurate. The HVX costs about $5,500 and the M2 is under $1,000. A couple good, manual Nikon lenses will only set you back another $500. Even if you add a bunch of other accessories (mattebox, FF), an HVX+M2 setup is still half of what RED costs. Yes, the P+S would make the prices comparable, but all of the other adapters are far more reasonably priced. Now, that doesn't mean that the image quality of an HVX+M2 setup is going to be anywhere near comparable to RED, but as far as price is concerned, I think there is still quite a difference.
 
one reason because the need of 1.3 super speeds by using the pro35 from pstechnik is, that the adapter needs 1,5 stops. you have to know that a superspeed with 1.3 is not a good lens when shooting it with 8 or 11.
if red will come out with a lens set with 1.9 like the ultra primes it will be a success if it will be half the price of the ultra primes ( about 9.000 US each). Shooting with PL Mount is one of the future elements in digital cinematography.
 
Haakon said:
I've been seeing this a lot on the forums lately, but I don't think it's very accurate. The HVX costs about $5,500 and the M2 is under $1,000. A couple good, manual Nikon lenses will only set you back another $500. Even if you add a bunch of other accessories (mattebox, FF), an HVX+M2 setup is still half of what RED costs. Yes, the P+S would make the prices comparable, but all of the other adapters are far more reasonably priced. Now, that doesn't mean that the image quality of an HVX+M2 setup is going to be anywhere near comparable to RED, but as far as price is concerned, I think there is still quite a difference.
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I've often thought this too, Haakon. And once you get lenses for the Red, you're well over an HVX/adapter/lens/et al. budget. I think there is room for both solutions out there.
 
Haakon said:
I've been seeing this a lot on the forums lately, but I don't think it's very accurate.
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Hence why I wrote in "some cases". Cases depending on the camera..since HVX isn't the only camera utilizing the 35mm adaptors.

But I definitely get the gist of what you are saying.. I am in no way going to suggest that the hvx200 + m2 bundle costs as much as a red. Hvx200 is in a completely different price bracket.
 
What I feel about 35mm adapters, owning one and have used it to great effect (an MTV award nomination for less than 300 dollar production), I have to say: They are soft. It's not that the RED camera will be in the same price range than the adapter, although it really is (if you consider a PL mount adapter and lenses, such as the P+S technik), but once red's images come around, availiable to the masses, or at least to a lot of indies out there, the audience is going to get used to it, and when they see the shots from a Redrockmicro, for instance, they will wonder why is it so soft. It's a "fashion" and it will go away with time, just like plataform shoes, and giant dangling clock necklaces...

Cheers!
 
ludmux said:
one reason because the need of 1.3 super speeds by using the pro35 from pstechnik is, that the adapter needs 1,5 stops. you have to know that a superspeed with 1.3 is not a good lens when shooting it with 8 or 11.
if red will come out with a lens set with 1.9 like the ultra primes it will be a success if it will be half the price of the ultra primes ( about 9.000 US each). Shooting with PL Mount is one of the future elements in digital cinematography.
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Hi,

For any one interested the Arri price list

http://www.arri.de/prod/cam/2006_05-15_ARRI_Camera_Price_List.pdf

Stephen
 
taubkin said:
What I feel about 35mm adapters, owning one and have used it to great effect (an MTV award nomination for less than 300 dollar production), I have to say: They are soft. It's not that the RED camera will be in the same price range than the adapter, although it really is (if you consider a PL mount adapter and lenses, such as the P+S technik), but once red's images come around, availiable to the masses, or at least to a lot of indies out there, the audience is going to get used to it, and when they see the shots from a Redrockmicro, for instance, they will wonder why is it so soft. It's a "fashion" and it will go away with time, just like plataform shoes, and giant dangling clock necklaces...

Cheers!
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Finally, a voice of reason! I am constantly amazed at the praise that gets heaped upon the "35mm adapters" of this world. Comparing them to a high resolution system like Red or any other is simply absurd.

I would go beyond describing it as a "fashion", I would describe it as a gimmick in many cases. I have seen a few instances where a small sensor SD or HD camera mated with an "adapter" has yielded results that seemed appropriate for the story. Most of the time, it just screams 'Hey look at the new toy I got, looks so cool'. These things get so overused, I see things like wide establishment shots that have remarkably shallow DOF.

Why?

Its either that they do not want to cut back and forth between the sharp and soft footage or they are operating under the illusion that an entire film needs to be shot wide open.

Thanks Taubkin for your rational perspective.
 
tonacidigital said:
I think that 20,000 would be quite low for an entire set of 5 primes if they are going to be comparable to Zeiss or Cooke which cost around 20,000 each.
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Cooke only make 110 sets of S4's each year and they are hand made, they are probably the best in the business, given that a number of the best pictures nominations used them last year. They cost 20k because the man hours and tooling that goes into making them. Red will be using machinery and a production line to produce theirs and as such the cost would be vastly different although the quality would probably not be as good. If the set was indeed 20k and compared favourably with other lenses on the market I could see alot of people going for it. Those that invested 20K+ on RedOne in 2007 will already have a taste for spending cash they do or don't have so doing it again in 2008 won't seem so foolhardy :)
 
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