0 ire or 7.5 ire. Dilima
- Thread starter Elvis
- Start date
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
Re: 0 ire or 7.5 ire. Dilima
I admit, Elvis Im surprised Barry and Steve didnt jump all over this one!
From what I understand '0' IRE gives you truer/richer blacks (crushed) but I think for the purpose of NTSC 7.5 is the way to go.
Dont dont take my word for it!
I admit, Elvis Im surprised Barry and Steve didnt jump all over this one!
From what I understand '0' IRE gives you truer/richer blacks (crushed) but I think for the purpose of NTSC 7.5 is the way to go.
Dont dont take my word for it!
Z
Zoomforce
Guest
Re: 0 ire or 7.5 ire. Dilima
Always shoot 0 IRE. You are shooting Digital and Digital Black is 0 IRE. At the stage that you goto Analog I.E a Television, it will add the Setup to 7.5 IRE for you. If you add 7.5 in the Digital process your analog output will add another 7.5 IRE to the signal and whatever used to be black wont be black anymore.
Always shoot 0 IRE. You are shooting Digital and Digital Black is 0 IRE. At the stage that you goto Analog I.E a Television, it will add the Setup to 7.5 IRE for you. If you add 7.5 in the Digital process your analog output will add another 7.5 IRE to the signal and whatever used to be black wont be black anymore.
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
Re: 0 ire or 7.5 ire. Dilima
Ah ha!
Yes! Thanks Jarred. I was just now driving my wife crazy reading aloud to her about NTSC and IRE! I remember it being stated to use 0 IRE.
Question:
It is for FILM purposes the 7.5 IRE, yes?
Ah ha!
Yes! Thanks Jarred. I was just now driving my wife crazy reading aloud to her about NTSC and IRE! I remember it being stated to use 0 IRE.
Question:
It is for FILM purposes the 7.5 IRE, yes?
Z
Zoomforce
Guest
Re: 0 ire or 7.5 ire. Dilima
7.5 isnt anything to do with film. For film black is black and when you shoot at 0 IRE and do a film out the black will be black.
7.5 IRE is just a North American NTSC spec for TV's. Japan is NTSC as well, but the NTSC spec for Japan is 0 setup. Pal is also 0 setup. Back in the 60's TV's couldnt handle 0 blacks so that is why they added the setup.
So dont add Setup.. your DVD player will add it going to an analog TV etc.
And you are right about the editors. IF you give an Editor a tape that already has setup added to it, he will either kick you in the head or charge you a nice fee to fix it.
7.5 isnt anything to do with film. For film black is black and when you shoot at 0 IRE and do a film out the black will be black.
7.5 IRE is just a North American NTSC spec for TV's. Japan is NTSC as well, but the NTSC spec for Japan is 0 setup. Pal is also 0 setup. Back in the 60's TV's couldnt handle 0 blacks so that is why they added the setup.
So dont add Setup.. your DVD player will add it going to an analog TV etc.
And you are right about the editors. IF you give an Editor a tape that already has setup added to it, he will either kick you in the head or charge you a nice fee to fix it.
Z
Zoomforce
Guest
Re: 0 ire or 7.5 ire. Dilima
oh and as a side note just remember that when your editing on an NLE your footage is gonna look a little lighter when you watch it on TV. dpesnt matter if you add setup or not. However, Most NLE's have a little switch you can turn on to simulate the setup without actually cooking your footage.
oh and as a side note just remember that when your editing on an NLE your footage is gonna look a little lighter when you watch it on TV. dpesnt matter if you add setup or not. However, Most NLE's have a little switch you can turn on to simulate the setup without actually cooking your footage.
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
Re: 0 ire or 7.5 ire. Dilima
Tks for the education Jarred. O it is.
Tks for the education Jarred. O it is.
Z
Zoomforce
Guest
Re: 0 ire or 7.5 ire. Dilima
no problem.. its a pretty difficult topic to understand and there is a ton of confusing information floating around... even things like the JVC flash tutorial (ad)l end up being more confusing than they should be.
Best thing to do is just ask the editor rather than your producer... actually ask your producer to ask the editor
no problem.. its a pretty difficult topic to understand and there is a ton of confusing information floating around... even things like the JVC flash tutorial (ad)l end up being more confusing than they should be.
Best thing to do is just ask the editor rather than your producer... actually ask your producer to ask the editor
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
Re: 0 ire or 7.5 ire. Dilima
This is the part where I do not try to understand. I just accept it and move on.
It's a brain hurting thing.
This is the part where I do not try to understand. I just accept it and move on.
It's a brain hurting thing.
Re: 0 ire or 7.5 ire. Dilima
OMYGOSH!, You mean you don't have it in your hotlinks? Shame, shame, shame... :-[
http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/index.html#GammaSettings
;DRodger
OMYGOSH!, You mean you don't have it in your hotlinks? Shame, shame, shame... :-[
http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/index.html#GammaSettings
;DRodger
Z
Zoomforce
Guest
Re: 0 ire or 7.5 ire. Dilima
the 7.5 not being true statement is because the DVX when it adds the 7.5 the actual difference is only 2 IRE from 0.
You have the option on adding IRE because if you work in a complete analog world you can switch it up. You can also do some creative things with it, just like raising the master ped up to +15.
the 7.5 not being true statement is because the DVX when it adds the 7.5 the actual difference is only 2 IRE from 0.
You have the option on adding IRE because if you work in a complete analog world you can switch it up. You can also do some creative things with it, just like raising the master ped up to +15.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: 0 ire or 7.5 ire. Dilima
I didn't "weigh in" because I was waiting for MichaelP, who knows more about setup than I know about everything else combined.
But let me second everything Jarred said, and basically the rule is, "ignore that 7.5 setup menu option".
I didn't "weigh in" because I was waiting for MichaelP, who knows more about setup than I know about everything else combined.
But let me second everything Jarred said, and basically the rule is, "ignore that 7.5 setup menu option".
Re: 0 ire or 7.5 ire. Dilima
yep.. always shoot in 0 for the digital domain.. the 7..5 on the dvx is not "true" anyway.
..heres the adam wilt explanation from http://www.adamwilt.com :
Some DV and DVCAM camcorders like the AG-DVX100, DSR-PD150, DSR-250 can record a video signal with "7.5% setup." Is that OK?
The AG-DVX100, PD150 and DSR-250 have a "7.5% setup" setting in the menu. Don't use it! It does not add setup to the analog outputs; it modifies the digital data coming from the camera head by boosting the black level, resulting in washed-out blacks, reduced precision, and nonstandard tapes as described above. As a result the analog video played back from the camcorder or viewed live has its blacks at 7.5 IRE, so the signal looks like it has setup, but what it really has is a too-high black level!
The "7.5% setup" setting in these cams are really only useful if you're:
using the camcorder as a camera only, in switched multicam shoots where the other cameras have setup;
intercutting camera footage with off-air signals recorded on a deck like the DHR-1000 that similarly does not remove setup on analog inputs, thereby creating washed-out-black footage;
intercutting camera footage in an NLE with images brought in via analog dubs to DV tapes or live E-E digitizing when such A/D is done using low-end decks/camcorders that do not properly remove setup from incoming analog signals.
In these last two cases be aware that you're essentially working in your own little nonstandard "island" of washed-out-black digital data, and that intercutting with properly-digitized material won't be possible without (a) black level shifts or (b) lots of annoying rendering using the levels filter.
Do not confuse these cheap imitation "7.5% setup" controls with the genuine, pukka article as present on DSR-300s and 500s and the like. Those "add setup" controls in "Real" cameras are proper analog setup tweakers that do not screw up the digital data.
As far as I know no DVCPRO cams/decks suffer from these problems because they all have proper setup adding/removing options in their menus or on their switch panels.
I don't know what the story is with Panasonic's "DV Proline" cameras like the AG-DCV15 and AG-DVC200, or the AG-DV1000 and AGDV2000 VTRs. My guess is that the DV200 has proper "add setup" controls, but that the others may not. Similarly I'm not familar enough with JVC's "ProDV" and "CineLine" DV kit to say for certain how they're equipped in this regard.
yep.. always shoot in 0 for the digital domain.. the 7..5 on the dvx is not "true" anyway.
..heres the adam wilt explanation from http://www.adamwilt.com :
Some DV and DVCAM camcorders like the AG-DVX100, DSR-PD150, DSR-250 can record a video signal with "7.5% setup." Is that OK?
The AG-DVX100, PD150 and DSR-250 have a "7.5% setup" setting in the menu. Don't use it! It does not add setup to the analog outputs; it modifies the digital data coming from the camera head by boosting the black level, resulting in washed-out blacks, reduced precision, and nonstandard tapes as described above. As a result the analog video played back from the camcorder or viewed live has its blacks at 7.5 IRE, so the signal looks like it has setup, but what it really has is a too-high black level!
The "7.5% setup" setting in these cams are really only useful if you're:
using the camcorder as a camera only, in switched multicam shoots where the other cameras have setup;
intercutting camera footage with off-air signals recorded on a deck like the DHR-1000 that similarly does not remove setup on analog inputs, thereby creating washed-out-black footage;
intercutting camera footage in an NLE with images brought in via analog dubs to DV tapes or live E-E digitizing when such A/D is done using low-end decks/camcorders that do not properly remove setup from incoming analog signals.
In these last two cases be aware that you're essentially working in your own little nonstandard "island" of washed-out-black digital data, and that intercutting with properly-digitized material won't be possible without (a) black level shifts or (b) lots of annoying rendering using the levels filter.
Do not confuse these cheap imitation "7.5% setup" controls with the genuine, pukka article as present on DSR-300s and 500s and the like. Those "add setup" controls in "Real" cameras are proper analog setup tweakers that do not screw up the digital data.
As far as I know no DVCPRO cams/decks suffer from these problems because they all have proper setup adding/removing options in their menus or on their switch panels.
I don't know what the story is with Panasonic's "DV Proline" cameras like the AG-DCV15 and AG-DVC200, or the AG-DV1000 and AGDV2000 VTRs. My guess is that the DV200 has proper "add setup" controls, but that the others may not. Similarly I'm not familar enough with JVC's "ProDV" and "CineLine" DV kit to say for certain how they're equipped in this regard.