NO 24p in PAL HVX200

Smart Alac said:
but how do I create a 60i video from 50i footage?
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Deinterlace from 50i to 25p and then use a conversion plugin in your NLE, which will basically add a very film like pull-down to your footage and resize to NTSC dimensions.

DVFilm.com Altantis2 does PAL to NTSC ($195USD). Or if you're using FCP on a mac you could use Graeme Natress's Standards Conversion ($100USD). Or you could use Compressor2... although I've yet to get it to work particularly well, personally.

Either that or your could use a $60,000 stand alone Snell & Wilcox Alchemist unit with motion compensation...
 
but aren't the best results going to be if its shot in the correct format in the first place?

Won't their be artifacts, motion problems etc when trying to transfer 1080 50i to 1080 60i for US broadcast use?
 
Smart Alac said:
but aren't the best results going to be if its shot in the correct format in the first place?

Won't their be artifacts, motion problems etc when trying to transfer 1080 50i to 1080 60i for US broadcast use?
Click to expand...

Of course, but if you're shooting for an international market you have to make a compromise somewhere.

As a start to any production you have to choose a sensible workflow and stick with it. If you're in an NTSC country producing for TV use 30p/60i. If you're in a PAL country producing for TV use 25p/50i. If you're in an NTSC country producing for worldwide TV or filmout use 24p. If you're in a PAL country producting for worldwide TV or filmount use 25p.

If you're in an NTSC country producing for PAL or vice-versa then you'll need to hire a different camcorder...
 
Anders Holck said:
1. export the 24fps timeline to a Quicktime file. (Can be a small reference file)
2. open the Cinema Tools application.
3. Choose "Open Clip" (CMD+O)
4. Click the "Conform" button
5. choose "25" from the popup.
6. The framerate of the file has now changed from 24 to 25, just by changing a flag.

The audio will also be in sync, but will have a 4% higher pitch.
You can change the pitch back using an app like amazing slow downer or Soundtrack pro.

And like that you now have a 25 fps master!

(Beware that cinamatools changes the original file on disk. Dont do this to an original backup quicktime)
Click to expand...


thanks for the answer!

just one question

this operation is two second long...right?
how good the result is?

i mean,
the audio for example
what quality difference there is compared to : take the audio from the 24p timeline,stretch it in soundtrack pro etc...and after rebuild it with the video in a 25 fps timeline(of course in the timeline video track it will be the video changed in cinema tools).

it will be better audio result?


and regarding the video?
change the flag in cinema tools is the best way to go to 25?...

and after cinema tools conform if i will make a mpeg 2 pal encoding,the encoding softwere will read the 25fps and cannot change the frame rate...right?


yhanks in advance

and i am sorry for my english....i come from Italy.


best regards
 
Has anyone found a link anywhere with Panasonic stating why there isn't 24P on the PAL HVX200 ?

Because if it a PAL problem then what other problems do the PAL HVX200 have?
 
FREUDENBERG_FILMS said:
Has anyone found a link anywhere with Panasonic stating why there isn't 24P on the PAL HVX200 ?

Because if it a PAL problem then what other problems do the PAL HVX200 have?
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:furious3: It's not a problem. There are NO "PAL" cameras with 24p. The Z1 and the HD100 have to be switched into 60Hz mode to access 24p. 24fps is not and never has been used in PAL countries. Even film is run at 25fps when it's for PAL TV-out.
 
mmm - You don't need to buy an US HVX because the filmtout. Your Pal movie transfers to film frame by frame without any slowdown. It means your movie will be longer with a few sec. The audio needs slowdown.
 
FREUDENBERG_FILMS said:
Has anyone found a link anywhere with Panasonic stating why there isn't 24P on the PAL HVX200 ?

Because if it a PAL problem then what other problems do the PAL HVX200 have?
Click to expand...
There was something from a panasonic rep in the panasonic broadcast (europe) forum explaining that it is becasue of the oscilator crystals for the audio that there is no 24p. A second set of oscilators would be needed and they're not gonna do that. However I notice it can do 48p in 720.

Sorry no link, you'll have to go trawl yourself.

[edit - sorry, just read back through the thread, (all 9 pages of it), this has been said already]
 
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future competitions here

future competitions here

if the pal hvx will not be able to cope with 24p , then could the rules for any future
"fest" competition allow for 24p and 25p entries then????

cheers
 
mikkowilson said:
Lets do some math: *shudder*

Sony Z1:
2 Framerates: 50i and 60i
3 Recording Formats: HDV, DVCAM, DV.
Total available shooting modes: 6

Canon XL-H1 (After upgrade):
5 framerates: 50i, 25f, 60i, 30f, 24f
2 recording formats: HDV, DV
Total available shooting modes: 10

Panasonic HVX200 (NTSC):
12 framerates: 12p, 18p, 20p, 22p, 24p, 26p, 30p, 32p, 36p, 48p, 60p, 60i
5 recording formats: DVCPRO-HD 1080, DVCPRO-HD 720, DVCPRO-50, DVCPRO(25), DV
Total available shooting modes: ~23 - not counting recording medium or pulldown options!

Panasonic HVX200 (PAL):
12 framerates: 12p, 18p, 20p, 23p, 25p, 27p, 30p, 32p, 36p, 48p, 50p, 50i
5 recording formats: DVCPRO-HD 1080, DVCPRO-HD 720, DVCPRO-50, DVCPRO(25), DV
Total available shooting modes: ~21 - not counting recording medium or pulldown options!
-> Notice that the PAL HVX *does* have 30p as a shooting mode, if you want to go that convelouted path to NTSC. It even has 48p so you can shoot that and extract a clean (fast shutter) 24p!

And for those keeping track:
Total available shooting modes offered by the HVX200-NTSC and PAL versions together: ~42!

If 23(or 21) shooting modes arn't enough for you, then you should probabaly be using a bigger camera anyway - or prehaps film.

Where Sony and Canon manage 6 and 10 modes, you want Panny to douple their whopping 23 to 42?
In a 5lb camera?
Regardless of cost...

Good luck!


Oh yeah, and regarding that "we want 60p for slow-motion in PAL": Does anyone care to explain to me how you plan to record 60 frames into a 50 frame data stream?

- Mikko
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ooohhh....ahhhh.... Let's bring out the numbers, shall we? Let's compare 1920x1080 (HDV Cameras) to 1280x1080 or 1440x1080 (DVCPro HD).

Seriously, it's all about the talent that's behind the camera to get the shot (which some of you lack) - not the camera itself.

And FREUDENBERG_FILMS, your logo is good, but it is way too much like the Dreamworks logo.

-Greg
 
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DREAMWORKS!!!!!!!!!! dreamworks logo is in no way the same as mine!!!!!!!

I have a night time ocean which is luminated by the moon...... My logo is the moon with some high cloud cover with my title... the animated title starts off out in the deep ocean and pans up to a darklit sky.....

Dreamworks starts off on water ( not ocean as it is ment to represent a field of dreams ) then you see the boy's float off is rod hit the pond and it pans up quickly to him sitting on the cresent moon then pans right to dreamworks.....then reveals the whole logo....

Because it has clouds in it does not make it the same!


Im glad you think its up to the standard of such a profesinal logo as dreamworks logo though and will take that onboad.

The sound effects and score will set the mood. its very deep with violins and bass drums and starts off silent with the lapping of the ocean water...
 
FREUDENBERG_FILMS said:
DREAMWORKS!!!!!!!!!! dreamworks logo is in no way the same as mine!!!!!!!
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Heh! Heh! Well visually there is something reminiscent, but equally you could say that about the Paramount Logo (the one with the clouds in, anyway!)

Very nice rendering, good work. I can't wait to see it with the audio. The only thing I would change personally is the typography. I'd be tempted to do something a little more creative in terms of the typeface for the type logo, but that's just because I'm obsessed with typography!
 
i seem to remember being told (on this very forum) that if you can visually tell the difference between 24fps and 25fps just by looking at it, then you have eyes sharper than superman....
 
Yikes, what a storm in a teacup!
I've telecined the odd roll of film in my time and I can tell you not all of it is shot at 24fps! Film shot in PAL countries was commonly shot at 25fps, made the telecine process much simpler as back then there wasn't any digital processing available.

Today shooting on film for broadcast is still very popular and one of the overlooked advantages isn't anything to do with the 'mojo' of 24fps, it's because both the PAL and NTSC standards were developed with film very much in mind, back then film was a common acquisition format for TV networks as video cameras were way too bulky for news and the like.

Film is easily telecined at 24fps with pulldown to 60i or run at 25fps for PALs 50i. But there's another very good reason. NTSC is only 720x480, starting with 24p the res is below the PAL standard, it's not the frame rate conversion it's the resolution that's the problem.

All this disappears with HD, the PAL and NSTC res is the same.

In other words in SD no one in PAL land who was sane would shoot 24p, in fact many in NSTC land were buying PAL cameras if they were serious about a filmout from SD just to get the extra res. None of this matters with HD!

Much has been made of the Z1 being able to shoot 50i/60i and yes this is a big bonus, I've been able to give work to Z1 owners in the USA simply because they had a Z1, but really again this was only for SD work. And even then we had to be careful, shooting 5oi in a 60Hx country can give you flicker problems from the lighting although the Z1 has a filter that copes very nicely with the problem. I'll also add that these jobs were shooting fast moving machinery so the LAST thing we wanted was the MB of 24fps.

So, all in all I don't see why Panasonic are even bothering with a PAL version of the camera, the ONLY mode in which you'll need it in a PAL country is shooting SD and I don't think anyones buying a HVX 200 for that, are they?

You shoot 1080 or 720 at 24fps. For DVD distro you downconvert to 480 24fps and author a 24p DVD. You can also downconvert to 576 24fps, apply 4% speedup and produce a 25PsF DVD for the PAL market. For HD broadcast your 24p 720 or 1080 master gets played out as 24PsF (i.e. 60i) in NSTC land or has 4% speedup applied (just like a 35mm print) to give 25PsF.

Of course the ideal NLE for these conversions is Vegas, if only it was easier to get the footage into the thing, oh well, there's always Vegas 7.0?
 
robroysyd said:
Today shooting on film for broadcast is still very popular and one of the overlooked advantages isn't anything to do with the 'mojo' of 24fps, it's because both the PAL and NTSC standards were developed with film very much in mind, back then film was a common acquisition format for TV networks as video cameras were way too bulky for news and the like.
Click to expand...

I hate to disagree, but PAL and NTSC frame rates have nothing to do with ease of interchangability with film. Back in the (very) early days of television development the frame rate was locked to the frequency of the alternating current electricity.

As an aside, the speed of film is largely arbitrary. The reason it was standardized at 24fps is because before the days of sound films projectionist almost always ran the films faster than the 16-20fps they were shot at, for fear that the nitrate film would ignite if each frame was exposed to the lamp for too long. The filmmakers had to run the film through the cameras faster and faster so their films didn't look ridiculous.

I suspect that if Hollywood realized in the 1930s and 1940s the potential that television had, they would have chosen to run film at 30fps to work seamlessly with the (then) various American TV systems.

robroysyd said:
So, all in all I don't see why Panasonic are even bothering with a PAL version of the camera, the ONLY mode in which you'll need it in a PAL country is shooting SD and I don't think anyones buying a HVX 200 for that, are they?
Click to expand...

I produce DVDs for the UK. I like the HVX 'cause of the true 16:9 CCDs and DVCPro50. I'd also rather work in 25p and convert to 24p if needed, just 'cause I hate working with drop-frame!.
 
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Well I Guess 24p Realy Isn't An Issue In The Future Then!!!!

Well I Guess 24p Realy Isn't An Issue In The Future Then!!!!

FOUND THIS AT THE DV.COM WEBSITE.....

This is from Aint it cool news. Cameron's talking about the new technology he's using for his next films, and then they start talking about Digital Projection and Theatres. Here's something I found interesting, since we talk about frame rates ALL THE TIME.

"Lastly, he wanted people to understand something in regards of the Digital projectors that would be being placed in theaters around the world. These projectors have the capacity to screen things at up to speeds like 120 to 140 fps. The entire industry is going to be shifting to higher frame rates, probably somewhere above 40fps where suddenly the strobing you see or can detect on those big massive battle scenes in films like TROY, which instantly make you disconnect. Those will go away. And on AVATAR and BATTLE ANGEL ALITA it is absolutely necessary to have those higher frame rates, one for the sheer projection of the Stereo images, but also the sort of images he’s planning on putting out there are just the type that at 24 fps, would start to kind of break-up and become unintelligible. "
 
Digital cinema specs are already agreed on.
http://www.dcimovies.com/
24fps for 4k and 24 & 48 fps for 2k.
So far the data amounts will be so huge even with these, that it will take many years before there will be higher framerates.
 
Surprisingly lots of high budget european movies (budgets form middle end independent us and up) is shoot on 25P. Lots of the HDCAM movies is shoot on 25P. I will say, 25P is as established format for high end european moves as 24P. Just as we use super-16 to lots of our moves there US use 35mm.

The reason is that most movies need support from broadcastes as a major distribution. Also, VHS/DVD is more important distribution forms for european movies.

I think lack of 24P is an non-issue in the practical world, and I would be surprice if the major movie producers in Europe will reject HVX 200 due to lack of 24P. In US, the situation is different and 24P is more important.
 
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