While waiting for HVX.. new gig appears to pay for HVX

Justyn

Veteran
Greetings,
This is not an HVX question, but seeing as how I spend so much time here and I know most everyone else does.. I'll post it here as well.


HI all. A client of mine just asked me to provide a quote for a series of videotaped and also live web-streaming to their corporate office. I have a meeting with them on Tuesday and want to look like I know what the hell I'm doing here.. and in true producing form... I'm going to take the meeting because the job is worth my time to figure it out. I'm looking for any info on the hardware and software I would need. Websites, reviews, and overal IMHO's... would be greatly appreciated. Here's a bit of info about what's required.

I'll have a video and audio mixer there doing a live 3 camera shoot.. mixed down to either a composite, S-video and or a digital signal via firewire. I'll also be recording to a deck to back up the mixed lived master as well as recording to tape in each camera. There's flexibility here in what cameras I use and what output I select. THe board meetings will probably go 4-6 hours with a break every 2 hours or when needed.

From here on out I'm looking for decent solutions to get the final mixed footage uploaded to their server in windows media format. They want a multiple speeds-probably like a 56k version and a DSL version. I believe it's also requested that I can burn a CD or DVD of the entire web-stream, but that's something I could do afterwards in post.

Now, the ultimate solution that I'm looking for is one that satisfies their request for real windows.. as they are not a Mac friendly company.... but I am. I would like to convince them to go quicktime, but I'm not sure it would happen.. I could and would buy a g4 or the new macbook if I needed too.. as well as some type of hardware solution I want to get either some software and or hardware that is either stand alone or works with a Mac, preferably-- and a solution that would stream exactly what they want. . I would have access to the board meeting local companies IP connection as well as contact with their corporate office IT department. The IT department used to do this, but they looking to outsource and since I shoot their commercials and industrials they came to me.

In selecting the type of equipment and software I need, I do have a budget to work with and I think that live webcasting will become a serious industry so if it means that I don't make any cash.. but walk with the gear-- sounds fabulous to me. I also want something that can do quicktime.. real and be updatable and provide for new codecs like the 264 and all that. I know this is a long request, but I came to the experts.. or atleast the place where I spend an inordinate amount of time because my HVX hasn't come in yet.


Any and all info is greatly appreciated. I'll also post back on my findings and progress.. thanks YA"LL. It's a hot day down here today in Florida....


Justyn
 
Hi Justyn -

I haven't had time to digest all of your question yet, but one part did stick out.....
I have fought the battle of Quicktime vs. RealPlayer a few times, and if this company is not Mac friendly, don't push Quicktime as a solution. This same situation has been a no-win every time I have tried to position Quicktime as a solution, and it isn't worth the possibility of alienating the client. So figure on Real....

Ken
 
Justyn said:
Greetings,A client of mine just asked me to provide a quote for a series of videotaped and also live web-streaming to their corporate office.
The companies that specialize in this service are billing in the $8,000/day range for a three camera shoot and live streaming services, all inclusive.

Justyn said:
I'll have a video and audio mixer there doing a live 3 camera shoot.. mixed down to either a composite, S-video and or a digital signal via firewire. I'll also be recording to a deck to back up the mixed lived master as well as recording to tape in each camera. There's flexibility here in what cameras I use and what output I select. THe board meetings will probably go 4-6 hours with a break every 2 hours or when needed.
...
From here on out I'm looking for decent solutions to get the final mixed footage uploaded to their server in windows media format.
The Sony AnyCast station is the perfect tool for the job. $17k might seem like a lot of money, but imagine how much it could cost you if your mix and match computer parts don't function well together. It could be a disaster!
 
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8K per day... That's fabulous, and I'm certainly not getting that. I would like to and if I could, then I'd consider the 17k system. Is that an all in one system? Apparantly the IT department at the company used some kind of what my client told me looked like a flattened PC and it had a CD/DVD drive or something like that. It's a weird situation at the company where the sales side not officially the same as the IT and now the IT has branched off and won't support them in field applications.


I apprecaiate your info. I'm really looking for a solution in that might be expandable and with an initial startup cost of 6-10K. Possibly more if this could be a one man band opporation. I'd like to use locked down cams.. switch and run the encoder myself if it were that expensive. If it's cheaper then I can pay for cameraguys.. but that's also hotel rooms, meals and it's a considerable amount the.


I appreciate all leads... thanks
 
Also. I am not providing server space or upload facilities. Purely plug it all in and send it off...


I agree on not pushing the quicktime on them too.. Very good point there!
 
There is a system for Mac, or maybe WindowsXP within an emulator on a Mac, that offers live switching of multiple cameras, recording, streaming, the whole nine yards. I saw it being used at a conference a few years back. It crashed hard on the first day, they never did get it working. They were gone the second day and I never saw them again. I was mixing the sound... Never thought to ask what the system was as it didn't appear to work very well. Could well have been operator error or simply a bad internet connection. In any case, I'd be very apprehensive about using a desktop system for something like this. Maybe you could rent an AnyCast? I think Moviola in Hollywood has them...
 
I would get 3 large ccd cameras (not camcorders) and run the feed into a switch. I think the videonics can do this inexpensively. Then output to a hard drive solution, where you can compress it with squeeze, or canopus's version procoder?.

The switch might cost around $2,500. The cameras no more than $1,500 each with control unit. Hard drive $500. software $500
 
oh wait, are we talking about "live" streaming here? or, "throw it up on the server sometime next week" streaming? if the latter, then sure, i think you'd be fine using any old computer to do the encoding. if the event needs to be streamed live, then i don't know what to say. i've never done that -- i'd be concerned about unforseen problems fouling everything up and would tend to lean towards established "turnkey" solutions like the Sony AnyCast.
 
Don't get a Videonics. They suck.
I wouldn't even trust a Video Toaster from Newtek in a live situation. But it does a hell of a lot of neat stuff in a small box, a lot of bang for the buck, but it likes to crash. - It was probabaly that system someoen mentioned that crashed hard.

Tricaster from Newtek is the cheapest "all in one" solution. I don't know how reliable it is, supposedly it's ok.
The Sony Anycast looks good, I've played with it a little at NAB, It's pricy but i'd expect it to be good - Sony Broadcast kicks ass.

For web work Composite will work fine. (don't go the firewire route, it sucks for live work)

You wanted somethign upgradable, I'd strongly sugest you go the hardware route (it's better anyway).

Budget: 10k? Ok...

For the heart of the system get a Panasonic AW-SW350 switcher. It's small and basic, but it does everythign properly, no short cuts. You won't regret it. Oh yeah, and it's small and basic :) (PERFECT for switching for web).

For audio get a small Makie board, like a VLZ-PRO 1402. You can't beat it.

You will only *need* 2 monitors: Program and Preview. - Thoguh camera monitors are prefered and you can add those later. I'd recomend the JVC TM-9SU

Recording: Get a Sony DSR-11 deck. You can record to full size DV or DVcam tapes, giving you continuous record times of many hours. It will take teh composite video from teh switcher and give you a firewire output.

Take that firewire output and pump it into a decent laptop running the free Windows Media encoder. It will hanlde live encoding/webcast fine. :) And you'll have the tape backup.

As for the cameras, any camera with a composite output wil work. bigger chips are better. See if you can pick up some old studio cameras or betacams cheap from E-bay. But any cameras will work for this aplication really. If you have camera operators then you will of course want operator friendly cameras.

- Mikko
 
It seems that a lot of others have already said what I was going to... But just to throw in my nickel's worth...


Don't push QuickTime. The reality of it all is that QuickTime doesn't offer or do anything that Windows Media doesn't already do and QT options and performance on Windows kinda sucks compared to Windows Media. RealPlayer is an option, but IMO is a pile of crap. Anyway, video delivery format should be dictated by the client anyway (or at least guided by their intended viewing platform). There's a good chance you may be required to offer WMV as well as QT or RealPlayer formats here.

Do take a serious look at the Video Toaster and Tricaster. On a properly assembled system, they are very stable. The key is in the "properly assembled" system and when putting together PC parts this can be a huge task for those not very familiar with PC hardware. Even most shops that supposedly build capable systems struggle with this. I can probably offer some guidance in this area if you want to travel down that path.

Sony's broadcast solutions are great, but they are very expensive and I think would be overkill for this application. Although I don't really know what sort of budget you would be working with.

From what I've read so far, it doesn't seem like the HVX is your ideal camera. You need three cameras and the HVX is a little hard to come by. The P2 workflow, progressive CCD and variable frame rates are nice if you need this, but for the price of an HVX you can get three Sony HCR-A1 HDV camcorders that are compact and produce absolutely stunning video for the price ($1995 right now after the mail in rebate thru March 31). Or as others suggested, pick up older model 2/3" SD camcorders. ebay is a good place, but it's tough to find 3 of anything like that. Although, Sony DSR series camcorders are pretty common on ebay.

Going back to the webcast issues, what resolution and frame rate and/or bit rates will be ideal for this project? Will this video need to be delivered over a WAN/Internet/VPN with various types of connections or is it all corporate intranet/LAN? And if the latter, is it 100Mbps, 1000Mbps or even just 10Mbps and how many nodes are loaded on this system or per workgroup/segment? In other words, is 1Mbps per stream going to be too high of a bandwidth requirement or do they want 10~20Mbps per stream for an attempt at broadcast quality SD or pretty darn good HD? If you're going HD, then the above-recommended VT/TriCaster may not be the ideal solution... HD will be impossible if you target 56K and IDSL/ISDN or even low bandwidth DSL (256Kbps and lower).

Anyway, lots of stuff to digest and things to consider -- sounds like you have your hands full. :)
 
Great info guys. I will know more about the specs when I talk to them again on Tuesday. I just got the offer to pull up some preliminary options for a meeting on Tuesday. I know there's a wild area for lattitude in what's expected and what you get for your cash.

I'd even got a friend suggesting a multiple webcam mixed down or conferenced down possibility. Does anyone have a theory on this.? Ichat is supposed to do four cam conferencing.. is there something like this on the PC? with a type of switch option with software. Also, I did like the idea about the camera as an option. And a deck might be nice, but an analogue to DV converter box is pretty darn cheap these days.


Has anyone done live webcasting? Know the usual protocol? I have seen a few friends have links up on their site to footag that was just shot .. a few hours before. I am familiar with the webstreaming in post... and also that the HVX isn't good for this. I might bring it though to shoot the conference to my laptop with the Dell in the bag.. As a big.. hey come here me. Will shoot HD for cash and meal perdium.

I'll check out the options.. one and all.


Anything else? Has anyone really started to consider downloaded media on demand on sale at a low dowload price. A friend is doing an interesting experiment. Will report in time between now and HVX arriving.
 
Tough gig

Tough gig

I've never done anything like this and it sounds more like an IT gig than a filmmaking gig (obviously). But if it pays the bills, then why not. One thing I'd definitely recommend though: Make sure once you get all your equipment, PRACTICE on a mock webstream. Set up all your cams and switcher and live stream. You can't mess up once the Board of Directors are sitting around a table together. You just might lose your commercials and industrials work with them also.

Good luck!
 
http://pro.sony.com.hk/product_showprod.php?id=1114


After seeing this. I will have to either take out a second mortgage on my house... put it down on a few credit cards... sell plasma or go into timeshare on the unit.


That's friggin' everything you could need with future upgrades to handle HD-SDI input and possibly component HD... and then quicktime/ real player..... This is the real deal...

NOw how the hell do I find the gigs to justify paying 20K for something like this
 
So that said.... This would be a whole different series of assets to have. Anything else out there that remotely compares to Sony's option.... This is crazy sick.. badass.. damn. I got terrets from the techno geek in me


It is also definitely more of a IT gig.. but if I could get 4k a day for 6 days like they want to do. I'd be able to walk free and clear with the Sony. Pay a friend 400 a day with 250 per gig for travel expenses....

I've done this a few times. Gigs for gear. Back in 2001 I did a crazy gig producing 3k CDs for a state client in one day. We knew from the beginning it would come down to a one day turn around. I did an overnight shift because of the printing and when it was all said and done, the gig paid for 2 7 bay CD/DVD burners, the PC to run it and the high capacity CD disk printer.


Now, I'd like to spend less but what the crap.
 
If you can swing the Anycast it's probably worth it. This is what it's designed for. That said i've never used on in a production environment.

I teach with VideoToaster and it's riddled with bugs, and apparently Tricaster has it's share of major ones too. http://vbulletin.newtek.com a LOT of shortcuts used in the procudt wich result in shortomcings. They work in a teachign environment, but they suck live. (I've also had to do that, sick of lockups on air)

Thsi is a video gig, stay in the video world untill it's time to encode. Much too much is put in the hands of "oh we can do this in one computer" these days. The webcam route is a bad idea and asking for problems. - If you want to do that, just grab 2 webcams and plug them into the same laptop and use the input selection in windows media encoder to switch live! - I've done it betwen a firewire camera and a webcam. Works great! Of course the picture form webcams sucks, so not a good idea for anythgin important.

Use the computer for the encodeing and web delivery, but produce it as video.

I'd give the Anycast a shot if you can (demo it first, that's a lot of dollars right there) or then use a system like I originally sugested.

I don't normally bother justifying myself but...
I've sone a lot of webcasting, educational, boring lectures, all the way up to corporate for the top brass of Nokia.
Every time we have used a video system, and the computers have only delt with the encoding and delivery part. Computers crash, video gear doesn't.

- Mikko
 
Justyn said:
It is also definitely more of a IT gig.. but if I could get 4k a day for 6 days like they want to do. I'd be able to walk free and clear with the Sony. Pay a friend 400 a day with 250 per gig for travel expenses....

Now, I'd like to spend less but what the crap.

I have a friend who does this full-time, he had the Pinnacle Stream Genie. At first they would hire all Beta shooters and go composite in. His background was audio so he had all the mics, mixers and cables already. He was getting 4K to 5K a day about three years ago. Now he is getting the Tricaster and runs 3 DV cameras, no operators on the wide shot. Now he is lucky to get 1K or maybe 2K a day.
 
The Tricaster does look interesting. Does your buddy have it or is he getting one? I think the PCI card VT(4) version listed on their site looks a lot more robust. But it would require 2 8rack cases, a rack PC, SCSI 160/320 drives in 4's, fast video card, dual core processor.. and the grand total would be around 10k with a power conditioner and a few other elements. About half the price of the Sony, and it has component input and an SDI option I believe.

I think I will get something in a smaller budget range.. and then work into the Sony unit.... I mean, this is for corporate AV world here. MAin tent/ main ballroom set up for a live switch... IMAG... full running off everything in one box.... It would clean things up tremendously and even allow for remote camera operation. I know main tent AV gigs are very lucrative.. and the other gear like projects, screens, P and D can all be cross-rented. Regretably I did 4 years of corporate AV when I first got to town.. so I was used and abused.. eating flat meat sandwiches in ballrooms for 16 hour days for weeks sometimes. However, the corp. companies were racking it all in. I think if I got one AV job for 5 days.. this whole set-up would be paid in full.
 
NEW budget possible solution... Any thoughts? experience? reviews?

NEW budget possible solution... Any thoughts? experience? reviews?

I stumbled upon a pretty sweet piece of software. It's 500 bucks for the PC or mac version. I would be buying a DV switcher with quad monitor out and DV/ S and composite out. I've seen good ones around 3k. I would mix the sources live and then send a DV signal through the firewire port to this software.

http://www.varasoftware.com/products/wirecast/


Initially I had some questions about wirecast so I sent them an email. here is what he returned:

Hi Justyn,

Thank you for dropping us a line.

I have answered your questions below :

I have a need to be able to webstream a multi camera boardmeeting at the end of March. I\'m looking for a more moderate priced solution than a hardware based one. I am a Mac person but this first series I have to do as windows media video or reel video. I\'ll be providing the camera and uploading to their streaming server. I have a few questions about your product.

1. Is one version usable on both the Mac and or PC? WOuld i need to buy two versions to use one on the PC and one on the Mac.. or could I just get away with using the Mac and streaming 2 strems (one 56K speed and one DSL) of the Real or windows without having to get a windows PC.

Wirecast is licensed separately for each platform, so you would need individual licenses for both Mac OS X and Windows. Please also be aware that Wirecast for Mac OS X supports only QuickTime Streaming (MPEG-4, H.264 etc) whereas Wirecast for Windows supports both QuickTime and Windows Media 8 & 9. We currently do not support Real on either platform.

2. Would a G5 Mac powerbook or the new macbook pro be able to work through the S video port and the microphone port? Or would firewire be better for the interface?

Generally we recommend Firewire as the preferred capture device input.

3. I\'m editing through a live composite video switcher. Is it best to go analogue into a computer or firewire with this software?

It doesn't really matter to Wirecast, but we do recommend Firewire as the quality is usually better.

4. What hardware do you recommend on the Mac desktop/laptop? Same for teh PC desktop and laptop?

It really depends how many streams you are looking to broadcast at the same time. Generally, I'd recommend a MacBook Pro 2GHz for Mac OS laptop, and a 2.3GHz dual core G5 for the desktop. For the PC, I'd recommend a dual processor P4 desktop system at over 3GHz and a 2GHz dual core laptop.

5. Is this a stable system for several hours of webstreaming?

Indeed, we have many customers broadcasting 24x7 with Wirecast.

Any other info and documentation you have would be great. I\'m looking forward to making up a decision and jumping into live webstreaming.

I encourage you to download the evaluation versions of Wirecast online. They contain full user manuals which contain a lot of useful information. Download details here :

http://www.varasoftware.com/products/wirecast/download.html

Many thanks,
Brian Novak
---
Vara Software Support
support@varasoftware.com


*******2nd EMAIL**************

Hi Justyn,

Generally speaking Wirecast should be capable of 4-5 streams of video (dependent on average codec, frame size, frame rate and data-rate settings) on the dual processor G5 desktop systems I mentioned. RAM is not really a bottleneck, it really comes down to CPU. Wirecast takes advantage of multiple processors, so if you think you'll potentially need many streams, you could use the quad CPU G5 machines.

Many thanks,
Brian Novak
 
I'd like to find out about his testing. I'm going to have to have a solution in place and fully worked out by the end of March. I'm hoping to make it work on the Mac, but I'll go to the darkside PC dual-core laptop. Quite a value and it should work with the HVX as an offloading device and maybe to firewire to on other shoots.
 
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