Nikon to buy 100% of RED

Not my area of interest, but I'm glad for Scott that he got some sort of scoop on it to bring him more traffic.
 
Peter C. said:
You're right. After I wrote that post I watched a video that explained the lawsuit in more detail. It's hard not to speculate but often the behind the scene strategies of these camera companies is hard to comprehend. It might be like you said during the course of the lawsuit that Nikon gained an appreciation for RED's compression technology and that Nikon might want it for themselves or be able to license it to other camera manufactures who want to offer internal raw compression. But it still could be why the lawsuit was dropped because Nikon offered to buy them and that made both sides happy to settle the issue out of court.

I do still find the acquisition odd for a number of reasons:
1. Isn't Nikon itself in financial difficulty?

2. Why would Nikon want to enter the Hollywood Cine arena? Both Arri and Sony are the dominate players and there isn't a lot of room for competition. It's late in the game and that's not Nikon specialty.

3. Doesn't RED use Canon lens mount and batteries? Seems like it would have made more sense for Canon to acquire them but I guess since they own their own cinema line there's no point.

So the only thing I'm left is that Japanese camera companies copy each other. So both Canon and Sony have their higher end cinema line and Nikon decided it would be easier to buy one instead of trying to develop it themselves.

As RED users is this going to mean Nikon going to change the mount and battery to their system or are they going to treat RED as hands off and run independent of Nikon? But that's also wouldn't make sense why would Nikon buy them and then not integrate them. Honestly I don't think it's a good fit and most likely won't work in the long term.
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Some great questions and interesting thoughts to consider.

Nikon is doing just fine as a company. Their stock price is a bit up and down over the last decade, but essentially hasn't had any huge moves. They had billions in profit in 2023, not to mention doing pretty well in all of the years prior. They've got a massive warchest. But you are correct that they are the #3 player behind Canon and Sony in the consumer camera space.

I don't think it's that Nikon wants to come into the Hollywood cine arena and dominate, but more so that they want to use RED's IP to get back in the game vs. Canon and Sony. Some of the RED tech trickles down, maybe makes their mirrorless offerings more enticing than Canon or Sony, and they regain a bit of that market share.

I think you nailed it on point 3. Canon doesn't really need RED's tech, or they may just be happy with what they're doing on the cinema side already. Nikon had none of that, so it probably makes more sense for them to buy RED than anyone.

We live in interesting times.
 
Emanuel said:
From minute 32:31 / second 1951 on, Jarred's input on topic.
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Takeaways:

Nikon is a "hungry underdog"

Jarred claims that most camera companies have already licensed compressed RAW patent from RED even if they haven't released their own codec yet

he also claims that RED's relationship with Apple is much closer since winning the lawsuit than it was before

"thank God for youtube" because it created a new creator customer base

komodo opened up a new market for RED and sold more bodies than any previous model

he compares Nikon buying RED to Sony buying Minolta and incorporating their AF and lens tech into a much larger company

98% of his staff didn't know about the acquisition until it was publicly announced

phil Holland hopes that nikon will make a PL mount set of lenses. Jarred claims that many panavision and other cine lenses are based on nikon optic designs

Nikon is pronounced "knee con"

Sounds like they don't expect RED to announce a new camera for some time

​​​​​​​They keep talking but my interest is waning...
 
The nikon acquisition is not odd.

without a video camera to hang thier lenses the system is dead.

very few “stills” pros dont do some video now.. and them get roped into audio and lomgform ceo chats

And thayr needs a vido camera for your $10k of lenses
 
Seems like they are showing for a land grab with most of the property already taken up. The tough thing is the lack of install base of Nikon lenses with cine camera owners. Lets face it, cameras are more than good enough these days. Red does not need to release new cameras from the consumer's point of view. We have perfectly great cameras/images right now. So very few would want to sell all and buy new with a lens mount change. So in my view, any new camera from Nikon is just for the existing Nikon user base to purchase or complete new folks to the system. Which is fine, but a small market.
 
Pascal_Parvex said:
Having to buy all new expensive lenses is a major disadvantage.
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I'm curious about what lenses most people are currently shooting on?

The Nikon Z mount has the shortest flange distance of any modern mirrorless system, 16mm. This would give it the greatest adaptability to other systems when using a lens adapter. There may be some other mounts that are too small to fit an adapter in between, maybe the RF since it's only 4 mm longer?, but if you're shooting on a lot of other glass it should be easy enough to get a new adapter for your current lenses.

I've tried to spend the majority of my money on lenses that can be adapted to most anything. Presently I have all EF and PL lenses, with only the cheap, RF mount nifty fifty as my lone outlier.

These purchases have been by design. In the event that I switch from my current camera systems of Canon and RED to almost any other format I can keep the same lenses and just get new adapters.
 
It's also not like everyone is going to jump in and buy a new Nikon/Red camera right away. We don't know anything; what, when, how much.

People have cameras and lenses now, use those. The acquisition didn't render them useless. lol

Maybe in 6 months, 12 months+, everyone can see what's released and reevaluate.

But anyone with lots of RF glass who does give up on the system will go to/back to Canon cameras...but I bet they knew that already. :happy:
 
morgan_moore said:
The nikon acquisition is not odd.

without a video camera to hang thier lenses the system is dead.

very few “stills” pros dont do some video now.. and them get roped into audio and lomgform ceo chats

And thayr needs a vido camera for your $10k of lenses
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surely you could do this with their mirrorless cameras? if not, what do you think is their plan -- make a Nikon FX6 using RED patents? release a RED-branded hybrid camera? Or bring REDCODE to their mirrorless cameras and Nikon color science to their cinema cameras?
 
DustinSchmidt said:
I'm curious about what lenses most people are currently shooting on?

The Nikon Z mount has the shortest flange distance of any modern mirrorless system, 16mm. This would give it the greatest adaptability to other systems when using a lens adapter. There may be some other mounts that are too small to fit an adapter in between, maybe the RF since it's only 4 mm longer?, but if you're shooting on a lot of other glass it should be easy enough to get a new adapter for your current lenses.

I've tried to spend the majority of my money on lenses that can be adapted to most anything. Presently I have all EF and PL lenses, with only the cheap, RF mount nifty fifty as my lone outlier.

These purchases have been by design. In the event that I switch from my current camera systems of Canon and RED to almost any other format I can keep the same lenses and just get new adapters.
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that was my approach but if you want to use continuous autofocus, you really want to use native lenses for the system. I'm not aware of any lens adapter where autofocus performance doesn't suffer vs mounting on a native body, with the possible exception of EF -> RF. so now since I'm on Sony I use all FE lenses (mostly GMs). RED has been developing their autofocus system for EF/RF lenses and I assume that Nikon's AF technology will come to RED cameras. (I remember RED saying they were developing AF protocols for EF and RF lenses separately, so I don't even know if they attain equal performance on both lines.) I would presume that Nikon's lens mount will come to RED as well. But whether they use Canon or Nikon mount is a moot point for me unless I'm willing to sell and replace $15k of Sony lenses at a loss. Maybe a $5-7k loss.
 
DustinSchmidt said:
I'm curious about what lenses most people are currently shooting on?

The Nikon Z mount has the shortest flange distance of any modern mirrorless system, 16mm. This would give it the greatest adaptability to other systems when using a lens adapter. There may be some other mounts that are too small to fit an adapter in between, maybe the RF since it's only 4 mm longer?, but if you're shooting on a lot of other glass it should be easy enough to get a new adapter for your current lenses.

I've tried to spend the majority of my money on lenses that can be adapted to most anything. Presently I have all EF and PL lenses, with only the cheap, RF mount nifty fifty as my lone outlier.

These purchases have been by design. In the event that I switch from my current camera systems of Canon and RED to almost any other format I can keep the same lenses and just get new adapters.
Click to expand...

I mostly have PL and EF as well. I've stayed away from the mirrorless cine lenses of the lack of adaptability and I like the idea of things like being able to use the Module 8 Tuners or filters in adapters EF/PL mount adapters. I'm a Canon user, though, and I had to pick up the 24-105 f/2.8 because it is the ideal lens for most of my work and really uses the RF mount to its advantage.
 
cpreston said:
I mostly have PL and EF as well. I've stayed away from the mirrorless cine lenses of the lack of adaptability and I like the idea of things like being able to use the Module 8 Tuners or filters in adapters EF/PL mount adapters. I'm a Canon user, though, and I had to pick up the 24-105 f/2.8 because it is the ideal lens for most of my work and really uses the RF mount to its advantage.
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Yep, same. I actually think using EF or PL lenses on RF mount is a bit of a superpower by allowing you to use different adapters for various purposes. Speedboosters, ND adapters, Module 8, etc. And the EF lenses work just as well as native RF on Canon bodies.
 
ahalpert said:
surely you could do this with their mirrorless cameras? if not, what do you think is their plan -- make a Nikon FX6 using RED patents? release a RED-branded hybrid camera? Or bring REDCODE to their mirrorless cameras and Nikon color science to their cinema cameras?
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To me a mirrorless camera is not a “video camera”

long roll maybe hot swap
xlr
nd
sdi
AF

id be releasing a zmount nd af xlr vid cam. I dont follow red but they have reasonable cameras now? - surely that will be re released with a z mount
 
DustinSchmidt said:
Yep, same. I actually think using EF or PL lenses on RF mount is a bit of a superpower by allowing you to use different adapters for various purposes. Speedboosters, ND adapters, Module 8, etc. And the EF lenses work just as well as native RF on Canon bodies.
Click to expand...

when i left nikon (d) last year i too chose that my money was safest in ef.
 
morgan_moore said:
To me a mirrorless camera is not a “video camera”

long roll maybe hot swap
xlr
nd
sdi
AF

id be releasing a zmount nd af xlr vid cam. I dont follow red but they have reasonable cameras now? - surely that will be re released with a z mount
Click to expand...

I shoot a fair amount of corporate/event stuff (which was what you originally said would drag stills shooters into video) and there's nothing on this list I can't do with a mirrorless camera. Some of the solutions are workarounds and it would be preferable to have the port/feature built into the body. But it doesn't stop me at all. For that sort of work, I see the value of having an ENG body mostly as show for the client. But I still use mirrorless cameras anyway most of the time.

Looking at RED's latest flagship, the Raptor X, it looks like the only features you mentioned that are incorporated in-body are AF and SDI. But I'm sure the rest can be brought on board with expensive bespoke accessories.

I think the Ranger is the closest thing they have to a shoulder-friendly ENG body. Looks like it has only 1 XLR input and no in-body ND.

I think the Burano is the dream corporate/event videos featured body. People have reasons they don't want to use IBIS on serious cinematography, but I don't see why you wouldn't want it available for run and gun. And the sweet Sony eND system. It seems like there's some interest in that camera on this forum but not at that price point. (I'm not sure I'd even buy it at $10k although I love the concept. I don't see myself necessarily spending more than $6k on a camera body going forward.)

Maybe Nikon will release a Burano competitor... I do think it's awkward to straddle these 2 valuable brands. Do they release it with a Nikon badge and give the impression it doesn't mix with RED cameras? Or vice versa? Maybe it becomes "RED by Nikon" and they do a marketing push about how they've married the color science of the two. But they both have renowned color science.
 
ahalpert said:
I shoot a fair amount of corporate/event stuff (which was what you originally said would drag stills shooters into video) and there's nothing on this list I can't do with a mirrorless camera. Some of the solutions are workarounds.
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In the politest manner i just don't see that mirrorless are workarounds are acceptable.

for sure they may work for your solo shoot business model

not for a 5-10 camera Microsoft conference or big music gig.

if you are doing wildlife and thinking of buying a 600-4 for $15000 then are you going to buy it and hang a worlaround on the back.. or get a canon or sony 600-4?

the fx6/9 are excellent. C500-300 dated but functional . Burano spectacular. As i said i dont follow red and where they are now.

Renikon have a mountain to climb to stay at the table.
 
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They may see their “nuts and bolts” challenge of delivering acceptable cameras to hang from thier lenses.

or they may be blind in the corporate boardroom and made the deal for another reason

canikon left the door open for sony who did not exist 15 year ago in the “dslr” world

so im not seeing genius at board level
 
morgan_moore said:
In the politest manner i just don't see that mirrorless are workarounds are acceptable.

for sure they may work for your solo shoot business model

not for a 5-10 camera Microsoft conference or big music gig.

if you are doing wildlife and thinking of buying a 600-4 for $15000 then are you going to buy it and hang a worlaround on the back.. or get a canon or sony 600-4?

the fx6/9 are excellent. C500-300 dated but functional . Burano spectacular. As i said i dont follow red and where they are now.

Renikon have a mountain to climb to stay at the table.
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I mean, these are the exact same workarounds they use on the REDs to begin with. You get an XLR input attachment, or just record dual system sound. You use a matter box or a screw-in filter. And I'm giving my clients wireless monitoring anyway so SDI becomes less relevant (if I even have someone watching over my shoulder, which I often don't.)

But I'm specifically addressing the hypothetical photographer you mentioned who now gets asked to shoot video. Sort of come for the headshots, stay for the event.

This is basically the definition of a hybrid shooter. (I don't actually shoot stills so I'm not.) I'm not sure that the client will hire a photographer who normally works alone or with an assistant to shoot a 5-camera event. If they do, they'll probably have to rent gear anyway, but I agree they'll probably stick to Nikon if the options are available and they're a Nikon shooter.

The last event i shot was 2 cameras (a7siii, fx3) with prime lenses for speeches and b-roll. Plus a PA and DIT. Audio recorder into the PA. Client was thrilled.

Everyone's needs are different, but I shoot a fair amount of events and don't shoot ENG style. Getting a pretty shot is usually more important than moving quickly. I shoot everything with primes. The last time I used a 24-70, I regretted not using a 24mm instead. The time before that when I used zooms, I realized that my 24-70 could have been a 50mm and my 70-180 could have been a 135mm and it would have been better. All I miss from FX6-type cameras are eND and the ability to turn off NR, but they also have disadvantages.

I'm not sure a big music gig or wildlife is going to hire a hybrid shooter. Stills vs motion are pretty divergent shooting skills in those arenas. Fashion seems more likely, and there once again you don't have to worry about all the features you mentioned.
 
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Last thought - it's interesting that everyone is calling this a masterstroke of business strategy. That isn't clear to me at all. I'm not sure that RED is even profitable. And we're at a transitional moment in the industry. Tyler Perry just paused his studio expansion so he could gauge the impact that generative AI will have. I think this is a smart time for RED to sell but it's not an obvious slam dunk for Nikon. Maybe they will benefit from moving manufacturing to East Asia and taking advantage of the economy of scale they already have in place. They might be able to increase profit margin without any other changes.

https://petapixel.com/2024/03/10/a-seismic-shift-the-ramifications-of-nikons-red-acquisition/
 
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