It won't have any effect. Prices bottomed already, near zero. The F55 remains useful with great 4K image. If you are not broke why care what the second hand market thinks?
Sony BURANO
- Thread starter NorBro
- Start date
It won't have any effect. Prices bottomed already, near zero. The F55 remains useful with great 4K image. If you are not broke why care what the second hand market thinks?
Run&Gun
Veteran
Yep. I’ve never sold a camera that I’ve bought or even thought about what a piece of gears re-sell value will be down the road. My opinion, if that’s the thinking and calculus you have to do when buying gear, you’re doing something wrong.
I use my gear pretty much until nobody wants it anymore, at which time I’ve made the purchase price back maybe dozens of times over. And if I would need to still use it, its usefulness to me at that point, along with the money I will make with it, is greater than what I would have sold it for, anyway. Generally speaking, the only time you’re going to sell a used piece of gear for a good price is when it’s still in-demand. And if it’s still in-demand, why are you selling it and not continuing to capitalize on its popularity and usefulness, especially if it’s already paid for?
I still own an F55. It’s not my primary large sensor camera. But I do still use it occasionally and still rent it out (or do trade outs) to a friend. They’re selling for anywhere between $2500-$5000 on the used market. If I have a shoot that comes up that I need it for and don’t have it, then I’ve just wiped out what I made selling it.
Run&Gun
Veteran
I thinks it’s being aimed squarely at the OMB or one to two man crew guys. Doc style work, TV feature pieces, corporate… Not larger crewed narrative or commercial work. But even as someone that works a lot in that world, those negatives are still negatives. And to me, those can be even bigger hinderances when you are working solo/small crew.
I’ve got a buddy that I shoot with, he’s about 10-12+ years older than me, talented, been doing this forever and has several national Emmy’s. He owns a couple of old ENG cams(like me), a Gemini, Komodo, F55 and F5. He was looking pretty hard at getting an Amira until the Burano announcement the other week. He immediately ordered one, instead.
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
Zacuto Kamelon (or some third party EVF), SmallHD 7" monitor, and Wooden Camera D-box and you start to have a useable camera here.
2 channels of audio is a pain and apparently the only way to get 4 channels is to use the FX9 top handle.
I'm with Grug at times wondering, what makes this much better than an FX9?
If I was buying now for the same price, an Alexa Mini (or Amira) still seems a better choice (though it does seem close) with ProRes, Arri image, Arri name brand, usable LCD/viewfinder combo, and four channels of audio (on Amira).
It's like Sony got close, but then messed it up with some basic mistakes, so they're still playing catch up to Arri's eight year old cameras.
2 channels of audio is a pain and apparently the only way to get 4 channels is to use the FX9 top handle.
I'm with Grug at times wondering, what makes this much better than an FX9?
If I was buying now for the same price, an Alexa Mini (or Amira) still seems a better choice (though it does seem close) with ProRes, Arri image, Arri name brand, usable LCD/viewfinder combo, and four channels of audio (on Amira).
It's like Sony got close, but then messed it up with some basic mistakes, so they're still playing catch up to Arri's eight year old cameras.
Maybe if they can sort out monitoring on the Burano some of it will trickle down to the cheaper cameras, that's my hope:
- Image data off the image (especially with an EVF, where it can just go top and bottom).
- Nicer layouts with options for super-minimal / tiny information. I know the FX3 has a new data layout, not sure how good it is. The way the monitor+ app displays data is so much better and more space-efficient than Sony's standard mirrorless info display.
- Sensible combinations of image data and HDMI output so you can use touch tracking on the camera while still getting a useable image via HDMI (unlike the a7Siii / FX3).
- Take the best EVF you make for mirrorless and sell it as an external unit! Powered from the cold shoe but with an extension cable.
- Give us an option to send focus mag and peaking out via HDMI / SDI so I can use assigned buttons on the camera to turn these things on an off when shooting handheld.
- Make high-resolution 4" LCDs the absolute minimum. I really don't get why they're not doing this already - surely there is a glut of high-resolution screens designed for phones / tablets on the market. I would have thought a 3.5 inch, 1080 screen would be harder to source in 2023.
Monitoring is bad across Japanese camera brands (it's not just Sony). Perhaps it's a cultural thing - being able to see what you're doing and enjoy filming is somehow unprofessional. If you're not miserable, it's not really work is it? I gather that the US is culturally like this also though, and I don't see Blackmagic having the same problems. EDIT: Yes, I checked and Blackmagic is Australian.
Could be about hierarchy - only the director should have a decent view of what's being filmed, a mere cameraman should be able to see just enough to do as he's told.
- Image data off the image (especially with an EVF, where it can just go top and bottom).
- Nicer layouts with options for super-minimal / tiny information. I know the FX3 has a new data layout, not sure how good it is. The way the monitor+ app displays data is so much better and more space-efficient than Sony's standard mirrorless info display.
- Sensible combinations of image data and HDMI output so you can use touch tracking on the camera while still getting a useable image via HDMI (unlike the a7Siii / FX3).
- Take the best EVF you make for mirrorless and sell it as an external unit! Powered from the cold shoe but with an extension cable.
- Give us an option to send focus mag and peaking out via HDMI / SDI so I can use assigned buttons on the camera to turn these things on an off when shooting handheld.
- Make high-resolution 4" LCDs the absolute minimum. I really don't get why they're not doing this already - surely there is a glut of high-resolution screens designed for phones / tablets on the market. I would have thought a 3.5 inch, 1080 screen would be harder to source in 2023.
Monitoring is bad across Japanese camera brands (it's not just Sony). Perhaps it's a cultural thing - being able to see what you're doing and enjoy filming is somehow unprofessional. If you're not miserable, it's not really work is it? I gather that the US is culturally like this also though, and I don't see Blackmagic having the same problems. EDIT: Yes, I checked and Blackmagic is Australian.
Could be about hierarchy - only the director should have a decent view of what's being filmed, a mere cameraman should be able to see just enough to do as he's told.
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
It's nice to theorize about Sony fixing these issues, but not easy to count on it.
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ahalpert
Major Contributor
Did you see that Sony has a new Monitor and Control app? Basically just like Monitor+. I think that might be the future for this application. Run usb-c from camera to the phone or tablet of your choice. I just double checked and in fact the app is compatible with Burano.
https://www.cined.com/sony-free-mon...3-a7s-iii-fx6-and-burano-launched-first-look/
Not funny at all Eric.
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
I read one person suggesting that shooting 8.6K gives a finer grain compared to the 4K of the Sony FX9, which is one reason the Burano's image would be better than the FX9. But then of course the question becomes, how often would people be shooting 8.6K? And if you're not taking advantage of the 8.6K, then what are the primary reasons to buy it over the FX9?
What is with the two p-tap looking ports on the back plate of the camera having three holes? P-tap has two holes. That is p-tap there, right?
The top handle would be better if it could slide forward and backwards like the Amira's. This would be an easy fix with a Nato rail and Nato rail handle like ones I use on my C300s.
Anyway...
What is with the two p-tap looking ports on the back plate of the camera having three holes? P-tap has two holes. That is p-tap there, right?
The top handle would be better if it could slide forward and backwards like the Amira's. This would be an easy fix with a Nato rail and Nato rail handle like ones I use on my C300s.
I thought it was harmlessly funny with nothing derogatory, but if you feel otherwise, I have removed it and apologize if it could be found offensive.
Anyway...
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
This was also a bit limiting.
"Output Limitations:
One thing I discovered when using Burano to shoot X-OCN is that there are some output limitations. The camera has 2 SDI outputs, the top one is 12G and the lower one is 3G plus a 4K capable HDMI output. But when shooting using X-OCN these outputs are limited. You can’t have both SDI and HDMI at the same time and there is no way to get a 4K SDI output when shooting X-OCN. You can have 4K HDMI, but if you output 4K HDMI, you can’t have a LUT on the HDMI. In addition, if you are using the other codecs and want a LUT you can only get a LUT on the output when outputting HD. I was really surprised by these limitations." - https://www.xdcam-user.com/category/review/?ak_action=accept_mobile
"Output Limitations:
One thing I discovered when using Burano to shoot X-OCN is that there are some output limitations. The camera has 2 SDI outputs, the top one is 12G and the lower one is 3G plus a 4K capable HDMI output. But when shooting using X-OCN these outputs are limited. You can’t have both SDI and HDMI at the same time and there is no way to get a 4K SDI output when shooting X-OCN. You can have 4K HDMI, but if you output 4K HDMI, you can’t have a LUT on the HDMI. In addition, if you are using the other codecs and want a LUT you can only get a LUT on the output when outputting HD. I was really surprised by these limitations." - https://www.xdcam-user.com/category/review/?ak_action=accept_mobile
Looks like a version of what BeBob started doing, called a twist Dtap. You can than have the cable then run in two directions, and you plug in based on the direction you want the cable to run. So a Dtap that can run left or right cabled depending on the orientation you plug into it.
Run&Gun
Veteran
To me, I consider four channels of audio almost mandatory for any type of doc style work. I always have a nat mic on my Amira and routed to channels 3 & 4, leaving 1 & 2 open for either a wireless hop or mixer. No muss, no fuss and no worrying about forgetting if you plugged something back up if you unplugged it, switched a setting, level, etc. One of the reasons that I got the audio module for my A35. You can access all four channels of the camera and run an on-board mic and still feed and record other "real audio", too.
My buddy that pre-ordered the Burano came by today to borrow some gear and he messed around with my Amira, again. I think he's back to possibly getting one. Said he'll still keep the order in for the Burano, but he likes everything about the Amira that you mentioned, plus it's designed for shoulder use with pretty much no additional build-up/added crap to make it useable. And you can start making money with the Amira today. The Burano doesn't even ship until next spring. My Amira paid for itself in probably 5-6 months at the most, last year. I'm sure his would pay for itself before he took delivery of the Sony, too.
The only thing the Burano has that would be really useful to me, is the internal variable ND.
Run&Gun
Veteran
It's a pretty slick design. Besides the dual orientation, the center pin (positive) is recessed slightly farther than the negative, so that it doesn't make contact first. Arri actually uses the "twist tap" on the A35 power distro. module. Although I'm not sure exactly how much they want you to use it, though. It's located underneath on the bottom of the module. Not exactly the most convenient location...
I'm about to pickup an Amira and the while the Burano caught my interest, I'm sticking with the Arri.
- Easy audio setup
- Less cropped HFR options
- Easier to rig for shoulder
- I prefer s35
- From the footage, I prefer the look - although that's not fair to the Burano as its so new.
Things I like about the Burano are the instant on, CFE media, nice for a gimbal and once in a blue moon autofocus. I'll also probably wish i had that clean 3200 at some point.
Grug
Veteran
Yep, pretty ridiculous in this day and age - and especially for this price-point.
These limitations mean that (if you want 4k monitoring on-set), the two professional SDI ports you're paying for on the back of the camera, will sit idle, while you piggy back any onboard monitoring from the output SDI/HDMI on your wireless transmitter (which will be fed from the HDMI port). Not the kind of robust, professional solution anyone is looking for.
Also a very important point to consider - Sony's "firmware roadmap" is implying that the 2nd firmware update (due about 12 months from now) will aim to get camera display info OFF the monitoring composition output... but only on the HDMI port.
Since that surround-data monitoring display is so important for monitoring, that basically means the SDI ports on the camera are pointless. When shooting raw (which is what more professional jobs will do with this camera) you'll get the least-professional monitoring option available on the camera.
You also can't send wireless record triggering through HDMI (only SDI). So the ability to have things like Atomos recorders automatically recording takes at video village (very important with Sony cameras to make the playback experience tolerable on-set) is gone too.
So your options are going to be either:
- Horrible display-info riddled monitoring on SDI (in 1080p only, but with LUTs, desqueeze and remote record triggering available)
or (with an eventual firmware upgrade):
- A proper monitoring output image, but relying on HDMI connectors (either in 4k but with no LUT, no remote record triggering and no desqueeze, or in 1080p only but with LUTs and desqueeze available but still no record triggering).
Literally every option is violently compromised.
ahalpert
Major Contributor
The list of restrictions is so bizarre that it almost sounds like a cripple hammer designed to keep this in the hands of high-end OMBs
Yes, I agree. USB-C out from the camera (with power) could be a lot less limited than what we have now.
Run&Gun
Veteran
Yep, the Amira (still) checks a lot of boxes and is incredibly easy to use.
-4 channels of audio on full sized connectors (2x XLR’s and 1x 2-channel 5 pin), Line, Mic and AES
-No sensor cropping needed for any/all frame rates, up to 200fps(1080/2K)(60fps UHD)
-Just toss it on your shoulder, no rigging/building up required
-Yep, “FF” can actually be a hinderance for a lot of work. Huge lens selection for s35 sensors
-Yep, the look you get from an Arri sensor/camera is so good. There’s a reason it’s more or less the gold standard and has been for the last ~decade+. And it’s so easy. You don’t even have to shoot log or RAW.
I do wish it was a better “low light” cam, though…. Even 1600 isn’t great.