Atomos announces Sapphire F8 image sensor

C

combatentropy

Veteran
Atomos Sapphire F8 image sensor:
  • global shutter
  • full frame
  • 8,192 x 4,320 (17:9)
  • 15 stops
  • 12-bit
  • 60 fps @ 8K, 240 fps @ 4K, 360 fps @ HD
  • low power draw (2 watts) for possibly fanless cameras
  • phase-detection autofocus

Atomos began a project to make its own camera at least 10 years ago, if indeed it was "before Blackmagic entered the camera business", as the CEO said. The design team is "based in Tokyo and are all ex-Sony/Canon engineers". Atomos also bought parts of the Grass Valley company five years ago. But as the camera market got crowded, Atomos decided to scrap its plans for a whole camera and just offer the sensor. The likes of Panasonic and other camera makers primarily have been at the mercy of Sony, which in turn has a conflict of interest in offering them its best.

Atomos is in discussion with several unnamed camera makers, who have shown “great interest”, but the usual estimate is that it will be at least three more years before any encapsulating cameras are completed :(

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Maybe I'm wrong, but this seems like a waste of time...

- No one in Japan will be able to have it without it being limited in someway.
- Blackmagic is not getting it.
- ARRI won't be interested in it.
- RED will be offering 12K-16K in 3 years if they aren't acquired or bankrupt.

Who's left...

And there is either a $4K camera or a $40K camera...rarely is anyone interested in something in between, so what's the price...
 
NorBro said:
- No one in Japan will be able to have it without it being limited in someway.
Click to expand...

Can you tell me why? I admit I don't pay close attention to the business side of things.

- Blackmagic is not getting it.
Click to expand...

And this?

- ARRI won't be interested in it.
- RED will be offering 12K-16K in 3 years if they aren't acquired or bankrupt.
Click to expand...

I guess you're saying these two companies are too proud to use a sensor that they did not develop, or that they wish to keep their cameras distinguished, by having chips inside that no one else has? You are probably right. As for multi-K, I have long seen that resolution yields diminishing returns. I think so, in fact, after 2K. I will take 4K though. With this 8K sensor, I would probably often be shooting with a 4K crop or downrez. Anyway, others disagree with me and want more K, but at some K I would think they too would start to see diminishing returns.


And there is either a $4K camera or a $40K camera...rarely is anyone interested in something in between, so what's the price...
Click to expand...

Well, I for one am hoping for more like a $4,000 camera :grin:

I was thinking about Ikonoskop and Digital Bolex, how they implemented Kodak's CCD. As you may know, a CCD is a lot more work than a CMOS to build a camera around, because a CMOS includes more of the necessary image-processing pieces on chip. So now it's easier than ever, and I will always root for a small company to make a go of it.

But I don't know if someone like them will ever throw their hat in the ring again, now that we have Blackmagic and also the small-camera offerings from the major manufacturers (like a Panasonic GH6). These cameras satisfy most of the same customers (people who loved the film look but had low budgets).
 
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Blackmagic and Atomos don't get along.

And all the Japanese companies could make or outsource anything they want ... except they don't.
 
combatentropy said:
Can you tell me why? I admit I don't pay close attention to the business side of things.
Click to expand...

Well, it depends on what one believes - but, IMO, based on how cameras are continued to be made, they appear to continue to collude to control the business of their highly sought after exports (cameras). It's not illegal over there and since they don't have any competition [hybrids] that type of business model is great for the Japanese economy, so the big 3 - Sony, Canon, Panasonic, and to some extent Nikon and Olympus - have to continue to all get a part of the pie. So one of them - at least in the lower end - cannot have an amazing, super duper sensor without it being limited a little bit to even the playing field. BUT, if this is for like a $40K camera then it's a little different.

combatentropy said:
And this?
Click to expand...

As DLD pointed out, they used to not get along. Maybe it's better now but the original founder of Atomos - who I don't think is involved with the company anymore, IDK - once worked for Blackmagic and supposedly his employment there didn't end well.

combatentropy said:
I guess you're saying these two companies are too proud to use a sensor that they did not develop, or that they wish to keep their cameras distinguished, by having chips inside that no one else has? You are probably right. As for multi-K, I have long seen that resolution yields diminishing returns. I think so, in fact, after 2K. I will take 4K though. With this 8K sensor, I would probably often be shooting with a 4K crop or downrez. Anyway, others disagree with me and want more K, but at some K I would think they too would start to see diminishing returns.
Click to expand...

Yes, they are, but feeling proud isn't real the corporate reasoning; I think at this point they are just too large and important to consider anyone else making sensors for their cameras besides themselves, in-house. Definitely agree about diminishing returns for the most part (proper displays make the experience better), but RED's resolution chase is part of their business marketing so it's not really why, it's more like why not, why not 12K.
 
Atomos finances:

.......................2021........2022
Revenue...... $78m...... $73.2m
Profit/(loss)... $4.2m.. ($10.3)
 
I know nothing.. but my atomos monitor is pretty good at playback.. better than the menu hell of my sony and canons

make a sensor that plugs into that with those specs could be a good thing.
 
Paul F said:
Atomos finances:

.......................2021........2022
Revenue...... $78m...... $73.2m
Profit/(loss)... $4.2m.. ($10.3)
Click to expand...

Wait how come?

But yes, I agree that this sensor may never see the light of day. It may also not live up to its hype. But first you'd need a camera company to incorporate it. I heard that the founders of Atomos jumped ship from BM, stealing employees and IP. And that BM still hates them for it
 
Another problem for the independents is the mounting. Canon is lukewarm to anyone not named Canon, the PL glass is too expensive and there's no open standard on the electronic contacts. Even Samsung figured that out and quit the biz. And Samsung could have ruffled a lot of feathers with the fixed mounts on smaller sensors to go along with its APS-C models. And a full frame fixed lens is a hard sell.

PS. The latter is technically possible, of course, but the manufacturer would have to identify its market first. So, it might have a 24-120 F4 and a 28-70 F.2.8. The electronics are getting cheaper by the minute but this would be unprecedented in a large sensor world. And, in a very competitive small sensor world, there are plenty of camcorders vying for the same buck. I'd venture a guess that it's simpler for an independent to buy a third party data collector - Samsung sells its latest 200 MPX to Xiaomi and Motorola already - and build a Nikon P1000 clone around it for half the price.

But then you run into distribution problems anyway, would probably have to go direct sale/mail order only, etc.
 
Another option would be to offer various add-on lenses a la Fuji 100 (or a slew of models made for smartphones).
 
Just don't know where this could possibly go...best selling cameras of all time like the a7SIII and R5 are 4000 bucks.

An Atomos sensor in a Japanese stills camera that shoots video? I just don't see it...I see it more in a Google or Amazon or Elon Musk camera.

Or maybe a Panasonic EVA1 II. [Sony already has a Venice II in Hollywood and Canon doesn't have a system in Hollywood but they failed there multiple times and probably don't care either.]
 
NorBro said:
Just don't know where this could possibly go...best selling cameras of all time like the a7SIII and R5 are 4000 bucks....
Click to expand...
The problem isn't a $4,000 R5 and RV but a $2,000 X-H2. It may not have a global shutter and its rolling shutter is relatively poor but it's good enough for most photo and for most video. And the main reason isn't even the X-H2 2022 performance per se but the sign of it being a harbinger of future full frame ILC models in the same price range from Canon, Nikon and Sony. In other words, an independent has to come out with specs two generations ahead of the cartel in order to have any chance at a success. Samsung was almost there in 2015 with NX1 but even that wasn't enough. The cartel made up the gap with other features and put the final nail in with the auto focus on its various non-universally mounted machines.
 
Fujifilms are mostly niche cameras, but the same point could be applied to almost any ~$2K Sony camera like the FX30 which is super hot right now.
 
I haven't seen a Nikon in the field in 10 years but maybe I'm just missing them. :engel017:
 
Nikon can rot.

the z didnt work with my 600f4 14/2.8 or other costly glass

if they thought i was going to buy more glass that didn't natively work with an nd/xlr camera they were wrong

Gone canon after 25 years of nikon

my chum is teetering on the brink as more of his photo briefs start ti include “a quick bit of video”
 
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