Cinema EOS Announcement on 19th Jan - EOS R5C

Since 2013, getting close to 10yrs, i had refused to buy Canikony, though i ended up buying an XT3 at one point. but overall, i felt the cripple hammer was too strong.

These days i don’t have quite the same feelings, more so it is about choosing which one to buy, as they all do the bare minimum.

I still dislike the Camera business model. They are still treating digital cameras like film bodies, where they sell a customer one camera and try to profit off of the need to upgrade the sensor or buy media.

This is stupidity.

Digital cameras are different from film. Digital cameras are more like microphones or lenses, and customers should be buying multiple digital cameras for different uses. and naturally over time they’ll wear out or tech will improve and an upgrade will be necessary. Customers will also not buy based on image quality alone, look at Blackmagic, the company very early on offered the best specs for image quality without charging much, and people like myself still did not buy them.

But the Canon cripple hammer is more like the old idea of a consumable product. The film days. Yet during the film days people bought a camera body and it would last them 3-10years, typically, and for some much longer, and the extra costs were in the film and multiple lenses. Film was the consumable and the body was a constant. And that is perhaps what camera manufacturers fear, that if they made a camera good, no one would upgrade.

The truth is, digital is different than film. Each sensor has a different use and function. Wil a film camera, if you want to change the look, change the film. different colour science, different grain structure. A digital sensor is not like that. Each sensor is like a microphone or lens, they each do well in their own area.


So, digital should move towards the idea of different bodies lasting much longer. They need to stop the wasteful and polluting consumer business model. They need to stop wasting precious metals and rare earth material on absolute crap cameras.


Camera companies need to recognize that digital is a cameras require a different business model from film cameras. We’ve seen HUGE growth in camera sales numbers at the start of digital transition, and those companies wasted profits by throwing everything at the wall and making more crappy cameras than anyone can believe, most of which eventually failed and likely wasted their profits.

Camera companies need to realize each digital sensor is like a different microphone or lens and should be made to last a much longer time, so that people can buy multiple cameras without losing their investment every 2-6years. I can buy 20microphones and 30lenses and enjoy them all for years, and i have. Because each lens does something unique, and each microphone captures in a unique way from the others.

This is how digital sensor should work, they should not be made to do everything. That is this idea we can find “ONE” camera and never buy again is so IDIOTIC. We want to buy many cameras, we just don’t want all of those cameras to be worthless in 2 or 4 years. If microphones and lenses were like that, we’d hate buying microphones and lenses and try to limit our purchases of those products to only wise moves.

So, let’s hope they stop treating camera like a consumable item, and start seeing them as tools that have unique characteristics.

Sony A7 series is a fairly good example of this, and so is Red’s latest eco system too. I think Blackmagic too. You can buy a Red and keep it till the wheels fall off, and there are different sensors and body styles, so pairing the Komodo with a larger body makes for a nice long and expensive investment that can last 4-10years.

Sony A7 series, had they included 10bit ages ago would have been much nicer too. I would have bought three of those a long time ago, and then I’d be upgrading along the way, depending. Things like IBIS, autofocus, and whatever else that improves over time will eventually be worth a purchase, but artificial data limits and the idea that the stills get more dynamic range than the video has always been a **** way to make a camera. The A7 series is so perfect for that new business model, if Sony can realize it.

Camera model to microphone characteristic comparison (*hypothetical):

A7S = short shotgun mic, highly sensitive and practical, but may not be the highest fidelity or best acoustic signature, but it has some sensitive reach
A7 = Cardioid, perfect average use, works well for most things and has a great sound
AR = Large Diaphragm, this is the king of luxurious tones and nuance, bigger and better

mthe comparison could go on and on, as there are so many microphones, and many of them can cost thousands alone.

Lavelier, SDC, Wireless, wired, condenser, dynamic, and on and on, each one fulfilling a specific use. And when you buy one, you aren’t worried, because you knownit will last you 10years or much longer. Could you imagine buying a microphone or a lens that you have to replace in 2-4years? Could you imagine if a microphone was crippled to encourage updates in 2-4years? INSANITY.


If nonething else, the waste and polution camera companies generate is probably worse than the tungsten and celluloid we used to use. We think we’re so green and progressive.

I hope for the year that camera companies start making cameras with the same seriousness they used to during the film days. Stop this consumable mentality, and treat them more like lenses and microphones.
 
…Canon R5C may sort of represent the start of a camera business model where each camera is made with higher image quality and lasts longer, but does something specific. Is canon there yet? NO. The R5C is still a bit on the “consumer mentality” level of camera, but it is the closest Canon has gotten to not using the cripple hammer too much. The C70 with raw update is also a sign of hope that camera industry is going towards something less wasteful and more trust worthy investment.

The new model would not fully democratize quality, as we see in the lens and microphone worlds, people split hairs between the MKH50 and CMC641!!!! And there are people that hate the Zeiss or Nikon 35mm f1.4, but love the Leica Summilux. People will always pay a lot more to split hairs, because a lot of people just have more money. So the whole idea that if an R5C can shoot raw, no one will need to spend $80K on an Alexa is absolutely not based on reality! People with money need to pay more, because they either care enough to split hairs, or they have no taste and need the price to help them choose.

We all have a shelf of lenses and a cabinet of mics that we use, and none of them are retired, but we all have that one or two cameras we use, and all the others are retired and kept around for nostalgia. I hate this. I think this is nearly criminal. haha.

I want cameras to have good quality in the $600 to $10,000 US dollar range and none of them be retired in 10years. But i will still have 10 cameras, because they’ll all do something different and useful.

Need low light or night vision? got it
Need high dynamic range and color fidelity? got it
Need high resolution? got it
Need production crew ready camera? got it
Want the Canon colour science for this one and the fuji for that one? i got them both.

Not that any of these things have to be mutually exclusive, but if a camera did not go extinct in 2-4years, i would buy more of them. I would buy them new too, because i wouldn’t worry about the loss of investing in new.
 
Two main ideas behind the hybrid camera industry are - the complete Japanese cartel control over the supply and the inevitable demise of the industry itself due to the smartphones. Their executives aren't idiots but they do have to defer to the "gentleman's agreements" (how about that for the Japanese history) with regards to the feature sets of their products. The goal is to stretch their existence for as long as possible and, whenever that happens, they'll claim a resounding success.
 
TL;DR versión:

Camera manufacturers should adopt a new business model. They are stuck on the idea that a camera is a consumable. They should adapt to the realities that Camera bodies are now more like lenses and microphones, where they last longer but each does something specific. This way, professionals can buy more bodies to have specific cameras for each job, but not worry about their investment in multiple bodies going to waste in 2-4years. And as a result, many professionals will still buy several camera bodies, instead of swing from one body to the next, they will retain several cameras for 4-10years for different uses.
 
DLD said:
Two main ideas behind the hybrid camera industry are - the complete Japanese cartel control over the supply and the inevitable demise of the industry itself due to the smartphones. Their executives aren't idiots but they do have to defer to the "gentleman's agreements" (how about that for the Japanese history) with regards to the feature sets of their products. The goal is to stretch their existence for as long as possible and, whenever that happens, they'll claim a resounding success.
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That is why i don’t see CANIKONY as camera companies, just a cartel controlling a resource. Even at the cost of pollution, they only care about profit.
 
DLD said:
Two main ideas behind the hybrid camera industry are - the complete Japanese cartel control over the supply and the inevitable demise of the industry itself due to the smartphones. Their executives aren't idiots but they do have to defer to the "gentleman's agreements" (how about that for the Japanese history) with regards to the feature sets of their products. The goal is to stretch their existence for as long as possible and, whenever that happens, they'll claim a resounding success.
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The idea of “stretching” their existence is stupid, because it is not needed. They will inevitably go extinct at around the same time regardless, so the holding back features and such has little to do with prolonging and more to do with their belief in selling consumable material. Film was a consumable, replace film with digital, and they have to make digital consumable. It has nothing to do with prolonging the life of larger sensor cameras. It is about retaining the consumable business model of film.
 
James0b57 said:
The idea of “stretching” their existence is stupid, because it is not needed. They will inevitably go extinct at around the same time regardless, so the holding back features and such has little to do with prolonging and more to do with their belief in selling consumable material. Film was a consumable, replace film with digital, and they have to make digital consumable. It has nothing to do with prolonging the life of larger sensor cameras. It is about retaining the consumable business model of film.
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They think they can keep juggling their balls in the air far into the future. But with Olympus already out, these balls will begin dropping one by one.

As to the long term. vs. short term - let's say the photo-video industry has a decade to go. In that context, is anything really long-term?

PS. Semi-off topic. On FB, a friend posted a bit about Mikhail Bulgakov's "Master and Margarita" (One of the greatest books of the 20th century). the book is online and I picked up a line of dialog from its maim protagonist, one Professor Volland.

Here it is in Russian : Но вот какой вопрос меня беспокоит: ежели бога нет, то, спрашивается, кто же управляет жизнью человеческой и всем вообще распорядком на земле? ... для того, чтобы управлять, нужно, как-никак, иметь точный план на некоторый, хоть сколько-нибудь приличный срок. Позвольте же вас спросить, как же может управлять человек, если он не только лишен возможности составить какой-нибудь план хотя бы на смехотворно короткий срок, ну, лет, скажем, в тысячу, но не может ручаться даже за свой собственный завтрашний день?

And in English via Google Translate-

But this is the question that worries me: if there is no God, then, one asks, who governs human life and the whole routine on earth? ... in order to manage, you need, after all, to have an accurate plan for some, at least somewhat decent time. Let me ask you, how can a person manage if he is not only deprived of the opportunity to draw up any plan even for a ridiculously short period, well, let's say a thousand years, but he cannot even vouch for his own tomorrow?

To paraphrase - the best laid plans, whether or not they're by the photo-video executives.
 
DLD said:
They think they can keep juggling their balls in the air far into the future. But with Olympus already out, these balls will begin dropping one by one.

As to the long term. vs. short term - let's say the photo-video industry has a decade to go. In that context, is anything really long-term?

PS. Semi-off topic. On FB, a friend posted a bit about Mikhail Bulgakov's "Master and Margarita" (One of the greatest books of the 20th century). the book is online and I picked up a line of dialog from its maim protagonist, one Professor Volland.

Here it is in Russian : Но вот какой вопрос меня беспокоит: ежели бога нет, то, спрашивается, кто же управляет жизнью человеческой и всем вообще распорядком на земле? ... для того, чтобы управлять, нужно, как-никак, иметь точный план на некоторый, хоть сколько-нибудь приличный срок. Позвольте же вас спросить, как же может управлять человек, если он не только лишен возможности составить какой-нибудь план хотя бы на смехотворно короткий срок, ну, лет, скажем, в тысячу, но не может ручаться даже за свой собственный завтрашний день?

And in English via Google Translate-

But this is the question that worries me: if there is no God, then, one asks, who governs human life and the whole routine on earth? ... in order to manage, you need, after all, to have an accurate plan for some, at least somewhat decent time. Let me ask you, how can a person manage if he is not only deprived of the opportunity to draw up any plan even for a ridiculously short period, well, let's say a thousand years, but he cannot even vouch for his own tomorrow?

To paraphrase - the best laid plans, whether or not they're by the photo-video executives.
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The bottom line is to just do what we can do. And that is how i live my life, just work with any and every camera depending on the job.

But since this is a public forum, it is a place to talk about what concerns us in this industry to start a dialogue.
 
The cartel accepts some feedback, especially if it's already within their plans. The plans, naturally, change, depending on the circumstances.
 
Here where we are at the moment - the total sales are dropping quickly and precipitously and the low end market has gone from about 100 million units to around 10 (and with slim margins to boot). The cartel more or less decided to yield the lower end to the smartphones. It didn't have to but it's made that choice. This means that the Japanese are going to make large sensors because, while a smartphone can compete on resolution, it can't compete on the sensor size. Full frame is then the current plateau with the medium format slowly inching into the high end stills market (from the super-duper high end).

With the sensor size then set, features become the difference between models - one has lower res and higher low light capability, the other has 8K, the third has IBIS and so on. The step up in performance is a necessity to differentiate the new from the old and keep up with the smartphones. And to be able to charge from $2,000 to ~ $6,500. The downside to the new performance plateau is that it's verging on beyond the human vision ability to discern any gradations and then a given model becomes good enough for the eternity.

PS. The above does not necessarily include the ENG grade equipment, which has its own unique set of requirements as as ND's, time code, etc.
 
DLD said:
Here where we are at the moment - the total sales are dropping quickly and precipitously and the low end market has gone from about 100 million units to around 10 (and with slim margins to boot). The cartel more or less decided to yield the lower end to the smartphones. It didn't have to but it's made that choice. This means that the Japanese are going to make large sensors because, while a smartphone can compete on resolution, it can't compete on the sensor size. Full frame is then the current plateau with the medium format slowly inching into the high end stills market (from the super-duper high end).

With the sensor size then set, features become the difference between models - one has lower res and higher low light capability, the other has 8K, the third has IBIS and so on. The step up in performance is a necessity to differentiate the new from the old and keep up with the smartphones. And to be able to charge from $2,000 to ~ $6,500. The downside to the new performance plateau is that it's verging on beyond the human vision ability to discern any gradations and then a given model becomes good enough for the eternity.

PS. The above does not necessarily include the ENG grade equipment, which has its own unique set of requirements as as ND's, time code, etc.
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Something about the way the camera-news sites plaster those numbers feels like they are missing the real story.

Anyone alarmed by the change in camera sales number has a short memory and is ignoring that cellphones are generating some of the most exciting advancements in photography for the future in a way that Canikony never would have done. We know this, because Canikony was happily sitting low profiting off tapes and battteries when Red and Arri took over high end video, forcing some change in the way Canikony did things. Many of us were doing photography or video before digital, so we know, because we saw it all happen.






Since the start of film, cameras sales had gone up in numbers more or less steady.

At the turn of the century, almost right on the year 2000, digital transition start for film, tape, and analog wirless. It all transitioned at the same time.

Another thing happened, email and social media began and people started taking and sharing images at a higher rate. Every business now thought of their camera as their marketing department, as they could now post to the Workd Wide Web.

With the accessibility of cameras and instant fame via social media, we saw a huge increase in video and film makers during this time, as well.

This all created a huge influx of camera sales, because it wasn’t just one revolution or transition, but actually several, all happening at one time.


But the majority of the digital cameras sold were not very good. This allowed the cellphone to quickly replace the lower end digital cameras. Canikony was still very much a trickle down technology model.

Cellphones reversed the trickle down mentality and many of the sensor and lens and processing innovations are happening in the cellphone space.

While cellphones are largely replacing low end camera sales that came out of the digital transition, that does not mean there is less money or development being pushed into digital pphotography and video. In fact, quite the opposite, the cellphone industry is pushing the phot and video industry technology further than it ever would have by itself. So in the long term, the transition to cellphones is a very good change. We are already seeing some trickle up.

And while it is a big loss in sales for Asian camera companies on paper, Sony is still very much in the cellphone industry, and the Korean neighbor that bowed out of cameras several years ago is also one of the leading cellphones.

So, in a very natural way, once cellphones got good enough, and once the digital transition was complete, numbers would naturally return to below the 90’s level.
But photography and people using cameras has remained high. So this is a big win for photography development.

What camera sales numbers did increase and stay high are likely the higher end video cameras. Cellphones are still far behind in this aspect, with only the latest cellphones starting to get closer in 2020.

So, if you look at the sales number in cameras for Canikony, in regard to the reality of the situation, then those numbers are still highly good.

But certainly, Canikony can no longer continue to make cameras the way they did the last 20years during the digital transition. They have taught us to reduce the amount of cameras we buy because cameras are a bad investment. buy used. I don’t find this mentality in the microphone world quite as much. most sound people i know prefer to buy new, because they are not worried about the loss in value and know they can offset the cost in the long term. Me and many people i know stopped buying Canikony by 2014. Canon and Sony just taught us to stay away. I started moving more towards renting and buying used cameras, and looking at Blackmagic, Red, Kinfinity, iPhone, and Zcam. So, the fact that Canikony are still moving those amounts of cameras is a very big number for them and shows that people are still largely flavour able towards Canikony. And those numbers are not including the cameras people buy and use on cellphones. most people i know factor in the camera when buying a cellphone.

10million stand-alone-cameras a year is nothing to ridicule, those are very high numbers considering the shifting of the digital industry and that we went through a Global Pandemic!

So the overall sentiment for photography and the money going into the photographic development is still very positive and forward looking.
 
If Canon Rumours for 2022 prove to be true, Canon will be fine. I can’t see the cripple hammer being as heavy as it was allowed to be in the last two decades.

I recall back in 2013 people saying that if Canikony would add 10bit or 12bit to their 1080p cameras, no one would ever need to upgrade, and here we are in 2022, and some of us are refusing to buy the $4.5K 8K raw R5C because it lacks IBIS or the latest AF.
 
There's also no way that supply chain issues aren't depressing camera sales. The same would be true of phones, but probably less impactful if the parts were more plentiful to begin with and a smaller percentage of purchase price than mirrorless camera parts.

I'm house-hunting now and considering the costs of renovations or replacing a boiler, etc. Everyone quotes you prices in pre-pandemic vs pandemic numbers. The pandemic has driven the cost of parts and materials sky-high. This is actually a big factor in the rising cost of homes because a used house is priced relative to a new house. So, if the cost of building a new home goes up...

BTW, DLD, I remember you attributing the explosion in house prices to the drop in interest rates. Well, average interest rates (offered by banks, not the fed) are now back to pre-pandemic levels yet housing prices continue to rise.

(Along another DLD-related tangent, Krugman recently admitted he was wrong about inflation in a column, and he attributes it to massive demand for goods instead of services (caused by the pandemic economy) coupled with a shortage of goods, caused by the same. The stimulus/inflation argument is pretty weak when you examine the dynamics and look at historical data. And polls show that most people expect high inflation this year, but a return to normal within 5. Which would be transitory, on a longer timeline, rather than stagflation. That's only expectations, but expectations matter)
 
@ahalpert

*you always find a way to slip in some politics. haha
 
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ahalpert said:
BTW, DLD, I remember you attributing the explosion in house prices to the drop in interest rates. Well, average interest rates (offered by banks, not the fed) are now back to pre-pandemic levels yet housing prices continue to rise...
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Ever heard of momentum trading?
 
DLD said:
Ever heard of momentum trading?
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Time will tell!

The supply chain disruption theory predicts that at the end of the year or next year, if materials prices come down then housing prices will fall in regions that are zoned such that its easy to build new housing.

there are also, separately, predictions that we're in a multi-asset superbubble that will pop within the next 2 years.

So, those are 2 reasons that prices could fall independent of interest rate movement
 
If you have to touch on economics to discuss camera design and the prospects of investing in a camera platform, it is one thing, but if you have to discuss politics to talk about economics, it is another.

No worries.

How is the dynamic range test going between the A7s3 stills and video?


I’m fairly curious about the R5C in this regard, as well.


The white papers have always claimed that c-log was maximizing the DR of a sensor, but seeing the spreading gap on dxo between the video and stills numbers, i’m wondering if it is just a testing and evaluation descrepancy or if C-log is no longer getting the maximum latitude? unlikely, but worth an exploration.
 
Haven't done the DR test yet, unfortunately. I haven't even opened up and powered on my a7iv that came 2 weeks ago. It's been one of those months

I can make an observation that if you close restaurants and hand out extra spending money, then people will use that money to buy consumer electronics and increase demand for parts that could have gone into our cameras. But that's not a statement of whether or not it was a wise policy or an endorsement of one party or another. Just an observation of cause and effect
 
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