Any news on the Arri S35 camera?

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david dominguez

Well-known member
Remember that Super 35 Arri that was slated to come out in 2021? Has anyone heard anything about that somewhere through the grapevine?
 
Originally, IIRC, it was supposed to come out in 2020 but was pushed back to 2021.

Haven't heard anything about it but I wouldn't be surprised if it was shelved due to the success of the LF and mostly Mini LF, and the general direction of full-frame sensors and motion picture acquisition (including TV).
 
Last i heard it was definitely coming out by the Spring of 2022

Was expecting an announcement the fall or Winter 2021 thought.

But they may have been more optimisitic about the pandemic when they said that.
 
James0b57 said:
Last i heard it was definitely coming out by the Spring of 2022

Was expecting an announcement the fall or Winter 2021 thought.

But they may have been more optimisitic about the pandemic when they said that.
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What I heard was similar. 2022, mini style body.

Personally, I’d like to see a s35 true 4K Amira. Or even “LF Amira” that had a s35 mode that was true 4K. Even though the vast majority of what I shoot/deliver is still 1080.
 
Run&Gun said:
What I heard was similar. 2022, mini style body.

Personally, I’d like to see a s35 true 4K Amira. Or even “LF Amira” that had a s35 mode that was true 4K. Even though the vast majority of what I shoot/deliver is still 1080.
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well, could get that extra 2K crop reach on those zooms. :)
 
LF is the golden goose that is laying the golden Faberge eggs. ARRI would be silly to MC Hammer it.
 
When I asked 2 months ago they said that they are working on the marketing materials so it sounds like it will be ready to announce soon. My guess is that the chip shortage is really holding it back and the demand is going to go through the roof once it is announced as every rental house in the world is going to place an order.
 
From the few dot points Arri released, it looks like it’s going to be a (roughly) 4.9k sensor. Nearly identical to the current S35mm chip in size.

Should downsample nicely into a solid 4k image (to offset the bayer pattern losses.

The big things I’m hoping for (and I’ll probably get one if it has them). Are a return to a sensible unibody design (with battery plate and controls built into the body), and a Venice-style ND system that gives us that speed of flicking between 1-8 discrete stops of ND.

I’d love to see a dual-native ISO as well, as I use that a lot these days on the Venice and the little Sonys, but I have a suspicion you can get either dual-readout (what gives the Alev III sensor its wonderful dynamic range), or dual-ISO - but not both at the same time.
 
a return to sensible design would be great! Arri customers lived with the Mini for so long.

I think that Arri will be making the new camera closer to the Mini in size, while being more purpose built.

They also imply that it will be a high power draw camera and may actually pull more power than the current models, which are some of the most power hungry cameras available.
 
The other thing, which is a bit more common knowledge, it the move of Arri away from Gold Mount of Vitec’s Anton Bauer (also generically referred to as A-mount), and a move toward Bebob’s B-mount. The confusion of B-mount/V-mount when spoken will be occasionally confusing, i’m sure.


The new B-mount is the most solid connection of the 3 main mounts A-mount, B-mount, and V-mount. It has the feeling of being welded onto the back of the camera.

my issue with B-mount will be sand and dust getting into the tight spots, though it still seems rather robust and as a result of the tight fit, better weather seal, perhaps. But one will certainly want to stay on top of keeping the B-mount well maintained in the field.

Gold(A)-mount has the best compromise of loose tolerance and secure seat.
 
I was just talking about this camera over on Reduser lol.... Funny how many have already forgotten about this announcement from years past....

In that short time there have been so many other cameras released within the last year that are relative (V-Raptor XL, V-Raptor, Komodo, FX9 / FX6 / FX3 (Raw over HDMI now), R5c, C70 (raw internal now), Nikon Z9, UMP12K / BMP6K pro, etc.

I secretly am hoping that Arri has benched the Alexa Mini 2, for additional R&D for increased resolution (> 6k res. @ 48-60fps) and hope the delay has something to do with that, but I can keep dreaming... I know a high resolution version of the Mini would hurt Mini LF sales but I would also really like to see a Mini LF 2 at some point with 8k resolution as well...

I know resolution is not Arri's game in typical fashion, but it sure seems to be where the rest of the industry is going (RED, Canon, Sony) and with the release of so many cheap 6-8k cameras that can shoot Raw internally the landscape is really shifting and it will be interesting to see Arri's perspective on high resolution acquisition.

At some point they either have to get in line or make a statement that "4k is enough", which really is ironic considering the marketing vision of all their competitors.... Albeit I have really become accustomed to > 4k resolution with RED cameras, but I would really respect Arri if they take the stance on "image quality over resolution" and "4k delivery being enough" as it seems to be the opposite approach for their competitors...
 
That is true, while i feel 720p/HD/2K and 4K/UHD are great effecient compromises, and are certainly enough for most things, but that 8K is the era of video Hi-Fi

Can you tell the difference between audio sample rates and bit depths? yes and no. I feel vídeo is getting into that territory of people that really enjoy and care about resolution and bit depth and dynamic range, while most people will still be fine watching youtube on auto quality settings with squeezed bandwidth.

The nice thing, is that in the digital world, we are resolution independent in many ways. things are constantly up and downscaled. But the only way that a conservative guy like me can afford an 8K TV is if there is mass adoption. So while i dislike the way that camera purchases are forced on me based on uneducated producers and clients, i still look forward to the coming higher fidelity capture and display. finally the videophile can meet the audiophile, and at unprecedentedly affordable.

Also, thanks to cellphone R/D small pixel size doesn’t result in near the same image quality loss it used to.


But we know that resolution is not everything, and if the Arri 4K s35 sensor is better at handling colours and dynamic range and reacts to light in a more organic manner, i hope they release it. force everyone else to move forward too. a 4K s35 sensor double or triple stitched should meet 8K specs on larger formats.

So, assuming the new sensor is definitively better than the AlevIII, then i hope they do release it, so that these muthafuggin mirrorless cameras can move beyond this 12+ stops DR limitation. Would love to have a 14+ stops CMOS mirrorless camera before computational and next gen sensor tech replaces the aging cmos tech. The way these companies hold back. CMOS reigns for 20years, kills of film, but then only gives us affordable 14stops DR in the last 2years of its life span, such a fuggin waste.
 
Grug said:
From the few dot points Arri released, it looks like it’s going to be a (roughly) 4.9k sensor. Nearly identical to the current S35mm chip in size.

Should downsample nicely into a solid 4k image (to offset the bayer pattern losses.

The big things I’m hoping for (and I’ll probably get one if it has them). Are a return to a sensible unibody design (with battery plate and controls built into the body), and a Venice-style ND system that gives us that speed of flicking between 1-8 discrete stops of ND.

I’d love to see a dual-native ISO as well, as I use that a lot these days on the Venice and the little Sonys, but I have a suspicion you can get either dual-readout (what gives the Alev III sensor its wonderful dynamic range), or dual-ISO - but not both at the same time.
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The ND system is one of the things that drives me crazy on the Amira. 1) It's slooowww. I can spin the turret all the way through, multiple times, on my ENG cams before the Arri fully switches from one density to another. Even the fully motorized system that Canon uses on their cameras that cost a fraction of a new Arri is on a completely different (higher) level (haven't used the Venice, so can't comment on it). 2) Why do they jump from 4 stops to 7? That's too big of a jump. 3) Location of ND control dial is almost hidden and inaccessible.
 
When you mention ENG cameras, I am assuming you are talking about the manufacturer Sony, then yes they do probably have the fastest electronic ND wheel I have ever used. I used to be a Sony guy, coming from FS5 and FS7 and even more interesting was the variable ND feature that Sony had or still has (haven't used the FX6 / FX9). It wasn't perfect but it was pretty intriguing to be able to run a continuous cut from inside a dark room to outdoors into bright light and let the camera do all the exposure dialing. Similar effect to running a focus motor on a variable polarizer out of a matte-box but way more simple and less involved. The new RF->PL mount from RED that is coming is supposed to have a variable ND filter stack of some electronic form. Kippertie also is about to release the Strata mount, a larger version of the Revolva mount, also RF->PL for using heavy duty lenses on V-Raptor, which will have a built in focus motor control wheel for rotating the optical filter turret (i.e. pulling ND remotely).

That being said having an internal or variable ND wheel at all makes you truly spoiled as for the last 4 years I have been on RED cameras primarily and any form of internal ND, albeit slow, would be a godsend. I am still an old fashioned guy rushing around to clean off 4" x 5.65" filters as I slap them in and out of matte boxes. It seemed like the smarter move years back to invest in a professional set of quality IRND filters, that would follow me throughout my career across several variations of cinema camera line-up's, but I almost feel that by 2025 most all cinema cameras will finally have internal ND's or access to aftermarket mounts with variable ND's for merely the same cost as a set of traditional filters.

I have only worked with the Mini LF a few times, but we always programed the buttons to be ND+ and ND- but I was unaware and never really took notice to any specific level of delay during switching ND positions or how far of a jump in stops there was between settings on the Arri cams. It seemed fairly easy to dial in exposure though. Haven't tried the Venice 2 yet, not a peep from clients about it, and none found local at any of my rental houses. Once it does arrive I will be interested in renting it personally even for a test to compare it to my Gemini or even better a rented Mini LF as from what I have seen the Venice sensor is a really organic compromise between high resolution, while still having a rounded out, smooth, interestingly organic, cinematic feel that keeps the eye interested without giving too much micro-contrast, details and sharpness to become overbearing and distracting (outside of large landscapes).

Many of the 6-8k cameras in the current landscape have always felt a tad digital to me and needed some level of diffusion or vintage glass to spice up the image, giving it something more unique and a more filmic rendering similar to that of traditional film. Furthermore, the noise signatures of a lot of these higher resolution cameras also tends towards resolving more "digital grain" during underexposure and doesn't give the same level of organic grain as the Arri cameras. I can't tell if there is a dynamic range constraint relative to the smaller pixel size and surface area or if it somehow just has to do with the displacement of the smaller pixels packed more tightly into said arrangement, but I do believe the perceptional differences between some sensors looking more digital and some sensors appearing more filmic to be partially due to smaller sizes of the photo sites themselves in order to have higher megapixel / resolution capture.

Consider that Helium has 3.5 micron sized photo sites packed together across a S35 sized wafer in order to produce 8K resolution image size. With these smaller high resolution S35 sensors, the photo sites have to be smaller in order to be packed into the confined space of the smaller wafer area in order to able to have enough megapixels to capture an 8k image size. On the contrary it becomes easier to fit larger photo sites across a lower resolution full frame or VV sized wafer (Mini LF = 8.25 microns across a VV sized wafer @ 4.5k). Interestingly though, I actually found a lot of the footage from the FX3 / FX6 / FX9 series with utilization of Phantom Lut's or a good colorist to appear really filmic considering their price point and now these cameras can record some flavor of "RAW" over HDMI. Consider that the FX6 and FX9 are running a sensor with a relative pixel pitch of 8.32 microns similar to that of the A7siii, which I have also found to produce a filmic image under the right hands. The dynamic range and improved color reproduction of the Sony cameras in the last two years has been stellar in comparison to price point as well.
Same can always be said for Arri, which always looks great and my experience shooting on Gemini, Monstro and Dragon which are my favorite RED sensors in that order due to sensitivity, color, and comparisons of the ratio between resolution, data rates, and overall image quality.

I find it interesting as we approach 8k and even 12k resolution as the size of images we capture are increasing but is the "quality of acquisition" (i.e. dynamic range, noise signature, color fidelity, codecs, global shutter vs. rolling shutter, data rates, frame rates, reduction of artifacts such a moire, etc.) also increasing or are we just chasing more pixels?
 
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Sony A7s3 and FX6 offer 2K in s35, so there is hope.

The move to 4K @ FF35 is our saving grace for the resolution wars, and shows some hope.

The popularity of the Gemini should also be an indication. At proper standard s35, the Gemini is only really resolving just above 2K debayered. So again, a good thing, and shows some hope.

Medium Format sensors at 8K and 12K could also be a place to find good s35 2K in the future. somewhat nonsensical.

The problem with 2K, is that it has to be significantly better than the 4K and 8K options, and that sounds like an expensive endeavor, because our 4K and 8K options today are better than any of our HD options of days past. So, finding a big enough market for the 2K high end sensor is probably small. 2K generic sensor would be easy and cheap to make, but i wouldn’t buy a 2K sensor if the 4K and 8K options were better.
 
sleekmedia said:
When you mention ENG cameras, I am assuming you are talking about the manufacturer Sony, then yes they do probably have the fastest electronic ND wheel I have ever used.
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I was actually referring to real ENG cameras(Sony, Panasonic, Ikegami) with mechanical ND turret systems. But yes, Sony's VeND system is awesome.
 
Technically the Fs5 and Fs7 and even then FX9 are part of the "handheld" line of "PXW" series of what Sony considers ENG cameras. I guess I wouldn't consider the FS5 / FS7 or even the FX9 a true ENG style camera as it is not made out of the box to fit on a shoulder but many set these cameras up on shoulder rigs to play that role for doc and event work, including myself at times. Never used any of the larger shoulder style Sony cameras (PXW-Z750, Z450, X320, etc.)... I kind of consider the F5 and F55 an ENG camera though, which I have used both. Is the ND wheel actually different on these cameras compared to the FS/FX/F line-up? I thought the VeND system was pretty much universal across the Sony line-up. What type of system is the Venice using?
 
sleekmedia said:
Technically the Fs5 and Fs7 and even then FX9 are part of the "handheld" line of "PXW" series of what Sony considers ENG cameras. I guess I wouldn't consider the FS5 / FS7 or even the FX9 a true ENG style camera as it is not made out of the box to fit on a shoulder but many set these cameras up on shoulder rigs to play that role for doc and event work, including myself at times. Never used any of the larger shoulder style Sony cameras (PXW-Z750, Z450, X320, etc.)... I kind of consider the F5 and F55 an ENG camera though, which I have used both. Is the ND wheel actually different on these cameras compared to the FS/FX/F line-up? I thought the VeND system was pretty much universal across the Sony line-up. What type of system is the Venice using?
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Venice has two motorized wheels that overlap to go up in 1stop increments.

F55 is the mechanical hand driven manual type that is more traditional. goes in nasty big steps, but was the first CINE camera to have them. But i tend to see the F55 being a cine/eng hybrid, and sort of an odd ball. A good odd-ball though. still one of the best designs, despite some missteps.

The VeND is on the lower cine cams, like the Fx6. I guess because of the inevitable issues with variable ND.

RnG likely has a more informed view of the Sony line up though.
 
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