Looking to improve sound for interviews . Which mike to buy?

Alex H. said:
Late to the conversation, but my thoughts:

”Sound man”, as a general term, does not give proper respect or acknowledgment to the fact that there are quite a few women in the industry - more and more these days. “Sound Mixer” opens up that space. That said...

I recently picked up a Sanken CSM1. I’ve kept it rigged and ready much more than my hypercardioid since I bought it. It sounds great, even if it’s missing a little on the very low end (which a low-cut filter would take out anyway), but the best aspect of this mic is that it does cut through the noise in less-than-ideal locations. I think the price is well below its performance, making it an absolute bargain. But I do still keep my hypers on hand (AKG Blue Line CK-93).

Lavs can also be helpful in problematic locations. The human torso absorbs a bit of the ambient sound. Lav placement is the difference between sounding like a local news interview and sounding like a higher-end production. There’s a sweet spot on the sternum, and there’s a little differentiation from individual to individual, that strikes a balance between frequency response and “opening up” the sound enough to give it some life. Too low, and you may as well just use an on-camera mic. Too high, and it’s in the pit of the throat and sounds muffled and cheap. And for seated interviews, unless you’re shooting extreme wides where you’ll see feet and floor, there’s no reason to go wireless. Get a lav terminated for XLR and phantom power conversion and run a cable.
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Thank you for the information. Yes, I also have a country man EMW LAV which I use over a wireless. Thought the same - depends on the shot I listened to the CSM1 on Utube not a great way of checking MICS out but I like the sound better than AUDIX - so it is back in play
 
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Jim Feeley said:
No worries about the budget constraints. Maybe also think of how you could use the mic when it's not on a boom. I mean, in just the short time I"ve had it, the Sanken CS-M1 has worked well on camera, and when swung on a boom (it matched OK with a couple Schoeps)... Of course, other mics can go on camera, too...


Maybe see if you can audition a Rode NTG5, about US $500. I have used one, but I've worked with tracks recorded on one and the tracks sounded pretty good. https://www.rode.com/microphones/ntg5

And perhaps also the new Rycote HC mics. About US $750. Again, I haven't worked with these but Roland here gave them a spin:
https://www.dvxuser.com/forum/announ...st-microphones

https://rycote.com/microphone-windsh...n-microphones/

LDV20, if you live near LA or NYC (or another town with a good location-sound dealer), see if you can haul down your camera and headphones and try out a few of the mics. Then get the one that resonates with you. So many good choices these days...

Jim
PS- thanks for the nice comments about the Aoi Yamaguchi piece. Props go to Logan Kelsey who directed, and Russ & Jim, the gaffer and grip who set up a 20x20 book light powered by two M18s, and for fill a 12x12 booklight powered by a couple M8s (if I recall correctly). And an attitude of everyone where they let me get the sounds of the brush and stuff... I have plenty of other examples of sound recorded in tough situations, but Aoi's work is so compelling... https://www.aoiyamaguchi.com
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Live in Tampa Bay area and places that will let you listen to mics and do some testing as you suggest are not easy to find. Wish I was back in NYC for this reason. I will look around for someone or some rental house here - this is no LA/NY. Could go to MIAMI as I have relationships with rental house there. Thank your information and links
 
LDV20 said:
Live in Tampa Bay area and places that will let you listen to mics and do some testing as you suggest are not easy to find. Wish I was back in NYC for this reason. I will look around for someone or some rental house here - this is no LA/NY. Could go to MIAMI as I have relationships with rental house there. Thank your information and links
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Shoot across I-4 to Orlando where TAI is located. Good peeps...

https://www.taiaudio.com
 
LDV20 said:
I am leaning towards to Audix - what camera are you using with it or are you using a mixer. Since it requires a powerful pre-amp wondering if FX6 can drive it. Your right, time to up the sound game - I will do alot of research and tutorials.
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Zoom F6. Which supposedly has preamps on par with SD mixpre series. I dunno how the fx6 preamps compare.

My feeling about learning audio is that we camerapeople probably sound to them like they sound to us. I hear sound mixers talk about cinematography and the cameras they buy, etc, and while they may understand some technical areas very well, they don't usually have the breadth of knowledge of a dedicated cameraperson. That's probably how we come off. There might be some aspects we get but we're probably overlooking a lot of basics. Since it's a whole different craft and not a subdivision of our own... But it's hard for me to be motivated to learn it because I'm a very visual person and I don't experience the same joy from working with audio
 
Run&Gun said:
It’s not necessarily just the absolute sound quality difference between running a source into a camera vs. a dedicated mixer, it’s being able to adjust that incoming source quickly, easily and seamlessly, on the fly, if necessary.
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Yes - far easier to adjust a mixer than the camera - and sound design premix3 seems to has higher bit depth (I think I am understanding this but I might not it has 32bit ) which can protect against higher sound levels I think - I still need to wrap my head around this concept. Buying a mixer is back in play.
 
Run&Gun said:
Shoot across I-4 to Orlando where TAI is located. Good peeps...

https://www.taiaudio.com
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Great idea - I will do that next week as I have to get this sorted out quickly as I have a project coming up. I do think the right choice is either the AUDIX or SANKEN unless the
Rycote sounds great and a new mixer probably sound design premix3 as I might be able to mount it on the FX6 and attend to it during small crew filming. I saw a picture of it mounted

Thank you
Larry
 
LDV20 said:
Yes - far easier to adjust a mixer than the camera - and sound design premix3 seems to has higher bit depth (I think I am understanding this but I might not it has 32bit ) which can protect against higher sound levels I think - I still need to wrap my head around this concept. Buying a mixer is back in play.
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Yes, the MixPre-3 II has 32-bit float. But a word of caution: using 32-bit for level recovery requires some extra work in post before you import your audio into your NLE, which means that you need an audio editing program that can handle 32-bit. Level recovery is done on a file-by-file basis, and results in 24-bit files that are then used in the edit alongside picture.

Honestly, 32-bit has created some laziness. It’s useful for recording sources with really high and unpredictable dynamic range, especially sound effects that include sudden peaks like explosions. But for dialog, nothing beats good, old-fashioned, proper gain staging. I know a couple of mixers who have 32-bit recorders now and don’t even pay attention to proper setup and record levels, swearing that it’s 32-bit so they don’t even have to worry about it. This is nonsense.

The pre-amps in the MixPre series are excellent and the limiters are quite effective and transparent. And having a mixer/recorder separate from the camera does have other benefits like multitrack recording, metadata management, and sound report creation. I‘ve seen these devices mounted to cameras, but it does create some clumsiness in the camera rig. Personally, I wouldn’t have one strapped to my camera but would rather keep it harnessed to my chest.
 
The snag with mics on booms is simply that the quality is operator controlled. 416 Sennheiser are not the 'best' shotgun, but they work in a controlled and predictable way in the hands of somebody who knows what they are doing. Junior/trainee audio people often get given boom poles and the results are very predictable. The difference between missing the mouth and not, is very small. Miss the mouth and you capture the surrounding area - the walls, which sound awfully boxy, or the noise of the rest of the area. Booming without headphones is a terrible thing for beginners - you really need them to tell what your captured sound is like. Once you are good at it, then the different mics come into play. Shorter the wider is a good rule - and there's no reason you cannot boom with a hyper or even a cardioid in some circumstances. You also have to deal with wind of course and the accessories to tame it. Tonally - lots of mics sound warmer and nicer than a 416 - but that isn't it's real point. Shorter shotguns tend to be directional at higher frequencies, so movement and distance work differently. Longer shotguns I really love for pure capture - my favourite being the CK9 AKG long one - but the damn things are much harder to boom indoors, and outside once you add wind reduction, they're amazingly heavy. With the shorter shotguns, double check the polar patter will do what you want - many don't. The final thing is the sound - do you like it? I have a British TV audio friend - he hates my favourite. His and my favourite both need EQ - but different EQ.
 
Alex H. said:
Yes, the MixPre-3 II has 32-bit float. But a word of caution: using 32-bit for level recovery requires some extra work in post before you import your audio into your NLE, which means that you need an audio editing program that can handle 32-bit. Level recovery is done on a file-by-file basis, and results in 24-bit files that are then used in the edit alongside picture.
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What's your opinion on recording a lower-gain safety track simultaneously? Is there some downside that I'm unaware of?
 
ahalpert said:
What's your opinion on recording a lower-gain safety track simultaneously? Is there some downside that I'm unaware of?
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Ah, the safety track...

Way back when, in the days of analog, that was a good rule of thumb for single-mic work. I used this often with a Shure FP33 feeding BetaSP and later DigiBeta. Even in the earlier days of digital, especially working with miniDV like the DVX-100/100a/100b, it was still a good practice just for the sake of avoiding issues with in-camera sound (sub-par pre-amps and the lack of decent limiting).

These days, digital multitrack mixer/recorders have so many better bells and whistles. And in-camera sound has improved, so feeding a reference mix from a mixer/recorder doesn’t really require a safety track. After all, the audio files from the sound recorder should be perfectly clean.

If you’re feeding a single mic straight into a camera, such as a boomed mic for a seated interview, then the safety track may still provide some protection. And if you’re using a lower-end recorder (Tascam DR-60D mkII, for example), limiting isn’t as reliable as what Sound Devices offer so a safety track there may also be a worthy tactic. In fact, many of the lower-end recorders offer a dual safety track recording feature.

But if you’re using a proper mixer/recorder both to record and feed the camera, it’s not really providing anything you need.
 
so, limiters > safety track?

how about in a situation where you're connecting a recorder to a wedding DJ board and then running around to your cameras? and you won't be there to adjust gain if the next speaker actually holds the mic close to their mouth rather than at their waist. how much impact can the limiter have in terms of dB?
 
ahalpert said:
so, limiters > safety track?

how about in a situation where you're connecting a recorder to a wedding DJ board and then running around to your cameras? and you won't be there to adjust gain if the next speaker actually holds the mic close to their mouth rather than at their waist. how much impact can the limiter have in terms of dB?
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Proper gain staging > anything else.

Limiters are great, if the limiters are of good quality. But any limiter can be driven too hard at some point.

Think through your signal chain and where clipping might occur. One of the issues with a safety track is that, if the signal clips in the recorder’s inputs (or farther up the chain, like in the DJ’s mixer), you now have a slightly lower recording of the same garbage.

In the extreme example of taking a feed from a wedding DJ at a reception, I’d be inclined to set my levels a bit more conservatively, maybe averaging around -18dB or -15dB, so that I have extra headroom before the limiters kick in. But, perhaps, this may be one of those times when 32-bit might be helpful, assuming you know how to handle it in post for level recovery. I’m never a fan of leaving recordings unattended; if you aren’t listening, you have no idea what/if you’re recording. But I get it. Even in my line of work, I occasionally have to do a bag drop for a driving shot, and we don’t always have the luxury of monitoring from a chase vehicle.
 
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There are lots of tutorials out there, but most of them are geared toward live sound and studio recording sound. The same principles apply, but the actual gain stages may differ since we often deal with transmitters and receivers before we ever hit a recorder’s pre-amp or line input stage. And reference levels for live sound and music studios are different from reference levels for TV/film/video dialog recording.

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/gain-staging/
 
ahalpert said:
Zoom F6. Which supposedly has preamps on par with SD mixpre series. I dunno how the fx6 preamps compare.

My feeling about learning audio is that we camerapeople probably sound to them like they sound to us. I hear sound mixers talk about cinematography and the cameras they buy, etc, and while they may understand some technical areas very well, they don't usually have the breadth of knowledge of a dedicated cameraperson. That's probably how we come off. There might be some aspects we get but we're probably overlooking a lot of basics. Since it's a whole different craft and not a subdivision of our own... But it's hard for me to be motivated to learn it because I'm a very visual person and I don't experience the same joy from working with audio
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Yes - Got a lot to learn to get good audio - this forum is starting my education I appreciate everyone's advice and experience - I think I read on this forum "having several microphones for different situations is like (for us) having several or many lenses for different situations.
 
Alex H. said:
Yes, the MixPre-3 II has 32-bit float. But a word of caution: using 32-bit for level recovery requires some extra work in post before you import your audio into your NLE, which means that you need an audio editing program that can handle 32-bit. Level recovery is done on a file-by-file basis, and results in 24-bit files that are then used in the edit alongside picture.

Honestly, 32-bit has created some laziness. It’s useful for recording sources with really high and unpredictable dynamic range, especially sound effects that include sudden peaks like explosions. But for dialog, nothing beats good, old-fashioned, proper gain staging. I know a couple of mixers who have 32-bit recorders now and don’t even pay attention to proper setup and record levels, swearing that it’s 32-bit so they don’t even have to worry about it. This is nonsense.

The pre-amps in the MixPre series are excellent and the limiters are quite effective and transparent. And having a mixer/recorder separate from the camera does have other benefits like multitrack recording, metadata management, and sound report creation. I‘ve seen these devices mounted to cameras, but it does create some clumsiness in the camera rig. Personally, I wouldn’t have one strapped to my camera but would rather keep it harnessed to my chest.
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I use avid and it says it has 32Bit floating point or something like that whatever that means- so I will check and see if it can accommodate 32bit. Or I'll see if I can change to 24bit in the mixer have to look a the specs. The Sony FX6 is 24bit so I do not know if sending a 32bit feed to the camera would work - this all all new territory for me. I would also be recording on SD cards in the premix.

Also the premix3 from what I read takes TC into the same input as the output if I understand the specs correctly - now that is a drawback. I think the Premi6 has separate inputs for both. However you can also get TC to HDMI which will also start and stop the device which is nice. I also have SDI to use for monitor/recorder.
I will call sound devices and get this sorted out.
 
paulears said:
The snag with mics on booms is simply that the quality is operator controlled. 416 Sennheiser are not the 'best' shotgun, but they work in a controlled and predictable way in the hands of somebody who knows what they are doing. Junior/trainee audio people often get given boom poles and the results are very predictable. The difference between missing the mouth and not, is very small. Miss the mouth and you capture the surrounding area - the walls, which sound awfully boxy, or the noise of the rest of the area. Booming without headphones is a terrible thing for beginners - you really need them to tell what your captured sound is like. Once you are good at it, then the different mics come into play. Shorter the wider is a good rule - and there's no reason you cannot boom with a hyper or even a cardioid in some circumstances. You also have to deal with wind of course and the accessories to tame it. Tonally - lots of mics sound warmer and nicer than a 416 - but that isn't it's real point. Shorter shotguns tend to be directional at higher frequencies, so movement and distance work differently. Longer shotguns I really love for pure capture - my favourite being the CK9 AKG long one - but the damn things are much harder to boom indoors, and outside once you add wind reduction, they're amazingly heavy. With the shorter shotguns, double check the polar patter will do what you want - many don't. The final thing is the sound - do you like it? I have a British TV audio friend - he hates my favourite. His and my favourite both need EQ - but different EQ.
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thank you Paul great information
 
LDV20 said:
I use avid and it says it has 32Bit floating point or something like that whatever that means- so I will check and see if it can accommodate 32bit. Or I'll see if I can change to 24bit in the mixer have to look a the specs. The Sony FX6 is 24bit so I do not know if sending a 32bit feed to the camera would work - this all all new territory for me. I would also be recording on SD cards in the premix.
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Again, I don’t think recording in 32-bit float is necessarily going to do anything spectacular for you. But yes, 32-bit recording is short for “32-bit float point”, so AVID seems to support that now.

As far as feeding the camera, you need to understand that your output from the MixPre (not “premix”) will be analog, so bit rate is irrelevant. You can record in 32-bit float in the MixPre and 24-bit in the camera. It won’t be a problem.

But instead of recording in 32-bit at this point, you’ll be better served learning how to record proper audio without it.

LDV20 said:
Also the premix3 from what I read takes TC into the same input as the output if I understand the specs correctly - now that is a drawback. I think the Premi6 has separate inputs for both. However you can also get TC to HDMI which will also start and stop the device which is nice. I also have SDI to use for monitor/recorder.
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On both the MixPre-3 II and MixPre-6 II, here’s how it works:

There’s a 3.5mm auxiliary input (inputs 4 and 5 on the MixPre-3, and 5 and 6 on the MixPre-6). That input can be set to take time code input, or audio input.

On the opposite side panel, there’s another 3.5mm port which is the stereo output. That cam be set to output audio or time code.

The HDMI can also be used as the time code input source to the recorder. The record trigger can be a little persnickety, though.
 
Alex H. said:
Again, I don’t think recording in 32-bit float is necessarily going to do anything spectacular for you. But yes, 32-bit recording is short for “32-bit float point”, so AVID seems to support that now.

As far as feeding the camera, you need to understand that your output from the MixPre (not “premix”) will be analog, so bit rate is irrelevant. You can record in 32-bit float in the MixPre and 24-bit in the camera. It won’t be a problem.

But instead of recording in 32-bit at this point, you’ll be better served learning how to record proper audio without it.



On both the MixPre-3 II and MixPre-6 II, here’s how it works:

There’s a 3.5mm auxiliary input (inputs 4 and 5 on the MixPre-3, and 5 and 6 on the MixPre-6). That input can be set to take time code input, or audio input.

On the opposite side panel, there’s another 3.5mm port which is the stereo output. That cam be set to output audio or time code.

The HDMI can also be used as the time code input source to the recorder. The record trigger can be a little persnickety, though.
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Ok that clears it up for me. Thank you. I think my first purchase might be Pre-MIx3 - Thank you
Larry
 
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