Blackmagic URSA Mini Pro 12K price drop

Hi Matt,
I have the six pack set of T2.0 Sony SCL-PK6-F primes, 20,25,35,50,85,135mm and a Red Pro Prime 300mm T2.9. I also ordered the optional EF mount to go with an assortment of Canon DSLR glass.
 
Here is the first shot from the Ursa 12K, using the same 85mm lens at the same aperture T4.5, same WB 5600K, later in the day, couldn't help that, so the light is definitely not the same. Ursa was shot in 12K 60 FPS at Q5 compression, rendered in 8K BRAW, uploaded to YouTube. Given the lighting conditions have changed from the clip in post 72 (above), which in your opinion has the better highlight handling, Ursa12K or Sony F55 ?

 
ursa 12k looks underexposed by comparison? shadow detail not quite there?

hard for me to compare. but what jumps out at me is the ursa 12k looks like it has much richer and more true-to-my-vision variation in the hues of green in the grass and leaves. i'm a big fan of that
 
Tom Roper said:
Here is the first shot from the Ursa 12K, using the same 85mm lens at the same aperture T4.5, same WB 5600K, later in the day, couldn't help that, so the light is definitely not the same. Ursa was shot in 12K 60 FPS at Q5 compression, rendered in 8K BRAW, uploaded to YouTube. Given the lighting conditions have changed from the clip in post 72 (above), which in your opinion has the better highlight handling, Ursa12K or Sony F55 ?

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Hard to give an opinion, I think - because the Ursa shot looks much more like "golden hour" - and the light quality / direction is much different. I appreciate you posting something so quickly, however, and am certainly interested to see more. Especially if you can do some side by side comparisons.
 
Yeah I think the colors look great. Do you see any moire on the original clip? I don't think I can judge DR from this but it's at least decent
 
NorBro said:
Problem was they want some of that 1% Hollywood market share but that will just never happen because ARRI is too powerful.
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I'm not sure that's the case, because Black Magic isn't in the rental business, and Hollywood mostly rents cameras. Selling mainly to rental houses wouldn't be worth the effort at BMD's prices, and making a camera designed specifically for rental houses would lead to far higher prices due to losing the economies of scale.

I think it's more likely that this is where BMD wanted to be all along, but has been artificially limiting demand while both finishing the camera firmware + SDK and ramping production back up as the tech industry recovers.
 
I doubt it. I think it's pretty clear GP wanted to appeal to the 1% but the adaptation is likely more difficult than envisioned.

BM has always been aggressive, but that price cut is too drastic to make any corporate sense.
 
NorBro said:
I doubt it. I think it's pretty clear GP wanted to appeal to the 1% but the adaptation is likely more difficult than envisioned.

BM has always been aggressive, but that price cut is too drastic to make any corporate sense.
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I do suspect that the current price is where BMD wanted to land the camera from the outset, but I highly doubt that it was aiming for the Hollywood market due to its size.

The streamers however, the likes of Netflix, Amazon, etc don't care nearly as much about the brand of camera they use as long as it works and gives them the look that they want.

Not having ProRes support probably inhibited its uptake, and the fact that while the SDK is in beta it's available ONLY in Resolve, plus why would anyone WANT ProRes as 8 or 12K The data rates would be ridiculous. Even at 4K, I have yet to find any justification for using ProRes, because 8K Redcode (and I 6K Braw) have lower data rates than ProRes 422, but more malleability than even ProRes 444.

I suspect that the 12K sensor design will make its way into more cameras in BMD's lineup over time, since its so scalable. I don't know of any other cameras that can record raw at non-native resolution without windowing, which is a pretty nice benefit. That plus the frame rate options are pretty compelling, but maybe BMD is planning a Pocket model using the same sensor, but with the max resolution and frame rates reduced so that it doesn't need as much built-in processing power in order to target a lower price tier and lower power consumption.
 
Grant said the 12K was targeted for the very high end user and although he would like to see that, it doesn't belong to a high end brand and doesn't come with a high end price. The 12K must face its identity, that of a value proposition. Getting the high end buyer interested involves some exclusivity and branding, not an everyman price. In spite of what he said, he priced it to attract the middle (and now) lower tier buyers (like me) with the goal of a high end image. :)
 
Tamerlin said:
I do suspect that the current price is where BMD wanted to land the camera from the outset, but I highly doubt that it was aiming for the Hollywood market due to its size.

The streamers however, the likes of Netflix, Amazon, etc don't care nearly as much about the brand of camera they use as long as it works and gives them the look that they want.

Not having ProRes support probably inhibited its uptake, and the fact that while the SDK is in beta it's available ONLY in Resolve, plus why would anyone WANT ProRes as 8 or 12K The data rates would be ridiculous. Even at 4K, I have yet to find any justification for using ProRes, because 8K Redcode (and I 6K Braw) have lower data rates than ProRes 422, but more malleability than even ProRes 444.

I suspect that the 12K sensor design will make its way into more cameras in BMD's lineup over time, since its so scalable. I don't know of any other cameras that can record raw at non-native resolution without windowing, which is a pretty nice benefit. That plus the frame rate options are pretty compelling, but maybe BMD is planning a Pocket model using the same sensor, but with the max resolution and frame rates reduced so that it doesn't need as much built-in processing power in order to target a lower price tier and lower power consumption.
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When I say Hollywood, I don't mean only USA blockbusters.

It's the 1% engaging in productions on the highest level in all markets and countries.

There is no way this camera was meant to be $6K. They simply were testing the market and failed.

Netflix also has a list of cameras most normal people have to use (I'm sure you know that) since the chances of making something with an unapproved camera and having it become successful on there is less than 1%.
 
The 12k is out of stock everywhere, I found one on Amazon but back at the $9995 price. There’s no estimated restock date, so was there a run made on supplies when the price was cut, or were inventories never that high in the first place?
 
I've heard that a lot of brick and mortars aren't crazy about Blackmagic's return rate, so smaller shops would be wise to only grab 1 or 2 like they've always done with more expensive cameras.

B&H and Adorama run the show as far as volume and probably have adjusted their expectations as well based on how the G2 has moved.
 
So another question then, who owns the stock carried by B&H and Adorama? BMD could not cut the price in half or tell a retailer how much it would have to be sold for on retailer owned inventory unless they rebated them the difference, or unless it was BMD owned inventory carried by the retailer, what would be the retailer objection if the return rate was high? I guess I just don’t know how it works. Mike’s Camera in Denver is now pretty much the largest and only camera retail chain left. They told me they wanted to sell BMD cams but could not get an agreement to do so.
 
AFAIK, the stores own it. It's Blackmagic's call on the price cut and BM repays/compensates everyone who purchased their inventory legitimately (otherwise the losses overtime would be too great for long-term sustainability).

As far as returns, stores can't (or shouldn't) resell them as brand new products, so the stores are taking losses on the returns. It's part of doing business but at some point it's too much, which is why B&H (and others) restricts no returns/no cancellations for some products (lots of Canon cameras).

And margins are already so tight anyway...selling the cameras is as much of a grind as using them.
 
It’s like you can’t discount the possibility BMD are bailing on the product. To me, it has been a really nice product and no issues so far, but for a big cinema cam I was surprised it didn’t include an HDMI output, which is the only reason I didn’t snap up that nice 2200 nit 7 inch monitor you’ve got for sale, can’t use it.
 
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