gimbal use with poor af cameras/mf

H

hojomo

Well-known member
I don't really like the gimbal look for most stuff, but people ask about it and I am considering getting a ronin rs2 to be able to get more work.

The only folks I know locally with gimbal experience are using them with sony cameras & af almost exclusively.

Anyone out there know the utility of using the ronin servo with an s1h? I know the hdmi lag is already bad compared to sony cameras and not expecting stellar response.
 
Not worth it. Even the ones who have manually mastered focusing with their thumb/index fingers while operating a gimbal will have trouble producing seamless results while they are walking/running.

You're better off stopping down fo f/4, f/8 and having a few feet of focus (even if it's slightly soft).

If shallow DOF is required, just try the S1H's AF...should definitely be good for a few seconds here and there (if you have that filming capability).

[There are also some auto/manual center focusing systems out there.]
 
I used to use the Ronin-S focus motor to manually focus my lens on the S1 on the Ronin-S. 7" Ikan monitor to see what I was doing. Totally workable and I got good results. I would still be doing it and romping if autofocus hadn't lured me. On full frame at 50mm, I typically can't get good results manually on medium shots at wider than f/2.8. But of course, the situations vary. Anyway, I dont think you'll have a problem with HDMI lag. And you can do it while you're walking or running. You just probably won't get as good results as state of the art autofocus systems
 
I have the DJI time of flight AF system. I’ve only played with it a little here at home, though. It’s pretty cool, but it requires setting up for each lens and it’s pretty much just a brute force system(roughly center of frame, non-intelligent, it doesn’t see through the camera).

I’m too old to manually focus a large sensor camera with a little wheel, looking at a small screen relatively close to my face all while actually shooting.

I rented a Canon R5 the other week to play with, and it’s AF is pretty bad-ass. I threw it on my RS2 and I think if you do a lot of gimbal work, that could be a great combo, because of the camera’s AF and IBIS. The built-in stabilization really smooths out the rough edges of completely handheld ‘single-handed gimbal’ work.
 
Imamacuser said:
No love for the old style counterweighted steadycams?
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No one wants to take the time to get good with one. I've been to workshops a few times(one of my friends instructs) and have friends that are ops. It's an art form that you have to commit yourself to and it takes years to get "good". Whereas with the gimbals, someone can grab one and produce "passable" results with minimal effort in a very short time. Obviously, just like with Steadicam, the more effort and practice and dedication you put into it, the better it can be, but for most things, shot-for-shot, Steadicam will look better and feel more natural.
 
Lots of steadicams at the Olympics.

There are so many shots where the operator stands right in front of the athletes (3-4 feet away when possible) - and you can usually confirm by catching the wide shot they cut to after and seeing the op walk away - and holds the shot for 10-15 seconds while the broadcast conveys various information about the athlete.

I have always wondered if everyone is briefed about video production practices during so much of their internal preparation/paperwork for the event.

Naturally many are used to it because of their athletic backgrounds, but others awkwardly stand there nervously (because of both the camera and the competitive anxiety).
 
ahalpert said:
I used to use the Ronin-S focus motor to manually focus my lens on the S1 on the Ronin-S. 7" Ikan monitor to see what I was doing. Totally workable and I got good results. I would still be doing it and romping if autofocus hadn't lured me. On full frame at 50mm, I typically can't get good results manually on medium shots at wider than f/2.8. But of course, the situations vary. Anyway, I dont think you'll have a problem with HDMI lag. And you can do it while you're walking or running. You just probably won't get as good results as state of the art autofocus systems
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tyvm abe, this is what I figured I would be walking into if I paired the s1h with a gimbal. encouraging to hear and I think for most situations I'd be using it in I'm likely to get by ok
 
NorBro said:
Not worth it. Even the ones who have manually mastered focusing with their thumb/index fingers while operating a gimbal will have trouble producing seamless results while they are walking/running.

You're better off stopping down fo f/4, f/8 and having a few feet of focus (even if it's slightly soft).

If shallow DOF is required, just try the S1H's AF...should definitely be good for a few seconds here and there (if you have that filming capability).

[There are also some auto/manual center focusing systems out there.]
Click to expand...

I'm really unlikely to need shallow DoF for a lot of what I'm considering using it for. That is another aspect of why I am less concerned about not having a best class AF setup & more comfortable considering s1h/mf
 
hojomo said:
I'm really unlikely to need shallow DoF for a lot of what I'm considering using it for. That is another aspect of why I am less concerned about not having a best class AF setup & more comfortable considering s1h/mf
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I'd use manual then for sure.
 
Jim Feeley said:
Remember before Steadicams were used for live sports? Those camops were amazing!
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The second video is a fun piece of content, but so unnecessary.

Footage probably isn't even that good (the captured memory is nice) and you have the drone shot there.

He's also risking injuring himself running that fast (although he's probably more than just a "cameraman").
 
hojomo said:
I'm really unlikely to need shallow DoF for a lot of what I'm considering using it for. That is another aspect of why I am less concerned about not having a best class AF setup & more comfortable considering s1h/mf
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Every type of work will have its own gimbal challenges. Often you don’t have the luxury of keeping a fixed aperture to your liking. Indoors you have to open it up to get a decent exposure. FF cameras have the appeal of greater light sensitivity but anything below f4 the DOF becomes problematic. While outdoors you’ll have the opposite problem of too much light that can vary widely and will need variable nd filter. When dealing with live events most people prefer AF tracking so you can concentrate on operating the gimbal and framing your shot. Most videographers are going to be working solo so you’ll need to be able do everything where as in things like broadcast the gimbal op will be given a narrow task, there will be multiple cameras which to cut away.
 
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Jim Feeley said:
Remember before Steadicams were used for live sports? Those camops were amazing!



And more real world (but not Olympics):

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The first one was damn impressive, especially when looking at the actual shot while he had the runner framed.

I remember how much fun I used to have shooting football in my early(and much younger) days and running up and down the sidelines all game. Kept you in shape... A good (busy) weekend could have been two high school games on Friday night, a college game on Saturday and NFL on Sunday.
 
Peter C. said:
Every type of work will have its own gimbal challenges. Often you don’t have the luxury of keeping a fixed aperture to your liking. Indoors you have to open it up to get a decent exposure. FF cameras have the appeal of greater light sensitivity but anything below f4 the DOF becomes problematic. While outdoors you’ll have the opposite problem of too much light that can vary widely and will need variable nd filter. When dealing with live events most people prefer AF tracking so you can concentrate on operating the gimbal and framing your shot. Most videographers are going to be working solo so you’ll need to be able do everything where as in things like broadcast the gimbal op will be given a narrow task, there will be multiple cameras which to cut away.
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all great points thanks peter
 
hojomo said:
all great points thanks peter
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thx.
In addition the setup needs to be light enough to hold for extended periods of time. An 8lb rig might not sound heavy until you have to hold it out in front of you for 10-20 minutes. A common beginner mistake is to try to mount a big heavy zoom or use a telephoto. Most gimbal ops are partial to either a wide prime or compact wide zoom.

If you can't afford a dedicated camera you'll need to be able to quickly swap that camera on and off the gimbal without too much fuss.
 
How do you know that hojomo isn't way stronger than us and also the world's greatest focus puller? Just saying...

I run a pretty heavy rig (ronin-s with side handle and 5" monitor, a7siii with tamron 70-180 and focus motor) which is about 9-10 lbs. There are strategies to deal with the weight. Most of the time I operate, my arms are tucked close to my body with upper arm pointed down, forearm at a 90 degree angle, and wrist locked straight. If I hoist the rig up or out, it's usually for a limited time. If I'm walking around or standing by, I rest the bottom grip against my waist.

I can't operate the rig for more than 1.5 hours continuously without fatigue impacting my performance, even in the low-stress position. But usually I'm operating on and off and alternating with other rigs.

Someone on the FX6 thread has the FX6 with sony 100-400 on a zhiyun crane 3s.

I agree about the usefulness of getting on and off the rig fast. I bought 3rd party tripod collars for my 70-180 (which is light enough that it doesnt come with one), 24-70, 50, and 12-24. So I can pull the camera off the lens on gimbal and put it on a tripod, slider, or my 2nd gimbal. And when I put it back on my main gimbal, the rig is still balanced because the lens never moved on the mount.

Incidentally, my 2nd gimbal which is much lighter (weebill-s) is a little more straining to hold because the gimbal column is not as tall as the ronin-s. So I have to hold the rig higher to reach the same camera height. It's a much lighter rig and I don't have as many accessories on it, so it's not really an issue. But the finer points of gimbal design and weight distribution make a big impact on how you can use it.

I hate underslung gimbals like the ronin-m because you have to really hoist them high to get the camera up where I usually want it, and it's just exhausting.
 
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