Understanding and Optimizing the Nikon D90 D-Movie Mode Image

the roll bars, but not the jello which is another issue. you are correct and yes it's been well documented before. :-)

/matt
 
I've been with the D90 for a few days now. Getting some great results, but-

Is there any way to see what the ISO and shutter is while in LV?
 
After reading 27 pages of this awesome thread, I have yet to come across my problem which is thus:

Using a D90 and D-Movie mode, I can record 5 minutes of video. Then a few seconds later, I go to record another 5 minute segment of video, but the camera shuts the recording off at 3 minutes and 23 seconds. Then, a few seconds after that, I go to record another segment of video, but the camera now shuts the recording off after 43 seconds. Obviously, this is some kind of buffer issue with the D90. My question is, will using an Extreme III card with a 20/mbs write speed make a difference? Presently, I am using a 4 gig SDHC Ultra II card with a 15/mbs write speed and I am encountering the above problem.

To users who have the Extreme III SDHC cards, are you experiencing this problem?

I did some testing and found out the problem persists even if:
I immediately format the card and try to shoot on it again.
I turn the camera off for a few seconds and then turn it back on.
I switch the memory card (for an identically spec-ed card).

The fact that this problem is happening even if I switch the memory card and/or format the original card tells me that this is probably some kind of buffer or processing issue with the D90. Just pure speculation on my part though, so any advice would be appreciated. Thanks again to all the contributors of this thread!
 
From what I understand the 5 minutes or less limitation is to prevent the chip from heating up. In the manual I think it states 5 minutes or less to prevent damage. Maybe the chip hasn't cooled down enough so your times keep getting shorter. Also in a hot enviroment the live view can shut down because of heat. I'm in Arizona and hope the Live View doesn't do this in the summer as it can be 115 and up here. Question: My D90 freezes on occasion and shows an error message and won't focus and sometimes shows an overexposed image in the Live View, you can't shoot a pic till you remove the battery and reinsert. I have heard it's a bad contact on the plastic lens body but I rub it off and it still won't function till I remove the battery. I have heard of this happening to other owners. I havn't shot 200 pics yet!
 
RDTS, I think you're correct about the heat. I remember feeling the memory card side of the camera and, even though it was in an air conditioned room, it was pretty warm compared to the rest of the body. I guess from now on, I'll make sure to give it at least 5 minutes between full takes... otherwise I might end up with a melted hunk of beautiful plastic.
 
Forgive me if am wrong, it is late and have read hundreds of pages of posts...

Kholi's order for manual lenses in section three of the beginning of this thread:

1. Without engaging LV mode, set the camera in Manual Mode.

....2. Turn on AE-L (hold), you can check to see if it's active by peerin' into the viewfinder for the AE-L icon.
....3. Close your Iris down to an f5.6 ~ 8
....4. Aim the camera at a wall or surface that's brightly lit. It should not be blown out, but bright. ....I would say just about sixty-percent (60%) Exposed or a little more.
....5. Activate LV mode.
....6. Open the Iris to a 2.8 or 1.4 and check the cleanliness. Not to mention the 1/30 ~ 1/60th shutter. Mmmmm. Delightful.


Then on post #79:

You can't lock anything before you go into Live View mode... Anything you've done, for a split second, even if you lock it before hand, is erased prior to entering.

But in your original instructions you say that you lock before live mode. Step 2 is lock and step 5 is activate lv mode. Which is wrong, right?

Post #79 is right. In order to get low noise I have been activate LV mode and then locking immediately after.

Am I wrong?
 
Hey Jim,

I answered the question in your other thread, but basic idea is that you just need to tune to a grey area for the lowest ISO (eye it) and then lock the camera down.

It probably sounds contradictory because of my "lingo" or mixed terms.
 
Ok, question for Kholi or others. I haven't read every post in this thread, but i'm a little confused on one point. Do you engage AE-L before or after you enter live view. I've seen it both ways, but not sure which to use for best results.

Method #1 (from Kholi post at dpreview)


The trick is pretty simple:

You close the iris down to about a f5.6~8 and point it toward a properly exposed spot or a shadow, activate LV mode and immediately lock the AE-L (LOCK). That stops the auto gain/ISO from kicking in. Then, you can open the iris as much as you would like for exposure.

this locks AE immediately after entering live view.

Method #2 (original Kholi post here)

1. Without engaging LV mode, set the camera in Manual Mode. If you're already in
....... Live View, exit. NOTE: The Viewfinder will automatically disengage the meters
....... (AE-L (hold)) If you wait too long. The original time is four (4) seconds. You
....... can set the time-limit to a longer length by going to: Menu > Custom Settings (Pencil Icon) > C (Timers/Ae-Lock) > Auto Meter-off Delay > Select amount of time.
....2. Turn on AE-L (hold), you can check to see if it's active by peerin' into the viewfinder for the AE-L icon.
....3. Close your Iris down to an f5.6 ~ 8
....4. Aim the camera at a wall or surface that's brightly lit. It should not be blown out, but bright. ....I would say just about sixty-percent (60%) Exposed or a little more.
....5. Activate LV mode.
....6. Open the Iris to a 2.8 or 1.4 and check the cleanliness. Not to mention the 1/30 ~ 1/60th shutter. Mmmmm. Delightful.

this locks AE before entering live view.

anybody tried both extensiveyl? any opinion on which method is preferable?
 
Sorry Polar, I'm late. But I think I have another method for achieving great results that may be a little easier. Still requires manual glass, but I'm working on testing it out further before I put it down.

For now, the best way to do it is:

Close down to 5.6 on the lens (don't go any further than 5.6~8 split), find a nice area where your shadow's about 50 to 60 percent. Lock the exposure then open up the iris as much as you want.
 
Sorry Polar, I'm late. But I think I have another method for achieving great results that may be a little easier. Still requires manual glass, but I'm working on testing it out further before I put it down.

For now, the best way to do it is:

Close down to 5.6 on the lens (don't go any further than 5.6~8 split), find a nice area where your shadow's about 50 to 60 percent. Lock the exposure then open up the iris as much as you want.

kholi, thanks. one question though, when in this sequence are you entering live view? (i might be missing something here, i'm pretty new to all this). looking forward to your new method!
 
D90 Shutter speed

D90 Shutter speed

jbierling.. [In LiveView mode you can't change your Iris from dial on the body. You have to have a lens with manuel aperture ring.]

Kholi, firstly I want to thank you very much the tons of information you give, the time you spent. and thanx all other guys. After reading this forum I decided it worth to upgrade from D80 to D90. And I recommend anyone to have D90 for movie mode. Maybe it is not perfect but for price/performance and for having a great photo camera it is the best choice.

Now my question Kholi:

I made some test.
1- When I dial aperture ring from 5.6 to 22 it doesn't make any change.
It must be blind on 22 but 5.6 and 22 gives same result.

2- I shot flowing water from a waterfall. I first find a nice area where shadow's about 50 to 60 percent then lock the exposure.. Then follow your steps and shot. When I watched the video, water wasn't flowing smoothly which means shutter speed is slow.
3- Then I try opposite..I find well lit white and lock exposure. Then shot but the flowing of water wasn't smooth again. so shutter speed remains same.

Maybe in movie mode D90 just adjusts the ISO. So only ISO and aperture (limited to a 1.8 ~ 5.6 range) can be adjusted. But shutter speed is always fixed to 1/48 to protect the cmos censor.

here are shots: I convert them to divx to reduce size. 24fps Frame rate and resolution is same.
http://www.digimov.com/DSC_0164.avi (50%-60% shadow exposure lock)
http://www.digimov.com/DSC_0165.avi (white well lit exposure lock)


Waiting for your soon opinions and suggestions. Regards
 
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I don't know about the shutter speed choice (yet), but I think the specific order of operations/methods given in this thread are mostly irrelevant in terms of magically setting the perfect ISO since all the methods do is lock the exposure for an over or under exposure which obviously impacts noise. If you under expose the scene its going to be using a low ISO which is going to reduce noise.

I've yet to see any difference between enabling AE lock before or after Live View is engaged.

The only trick I've noticed is that if you want to change the aperture (while using Live View) using a lens with a CPU with an aperture ring is that you need to set (using the dial on the body) an aperture smaller than what you plan to be be using. Then you can freely change the aperture between that setting and max aperture (e.g. between f4 and f1.8) on the lens during Live View (camera will show FEE of course - but that's OK).
 
I found that if I have the aperture turned down (under exposing) when shooting 50% grey and then lock the exposure and head into Live Mode... that it has jacked the ISO up and I end up with noise... What I've done (and what seems to work well) is to just expose it well, lock the exposure and then turn on Live Mode. The 50% grey just helps find good exposure, but doesn't seem to do much outside of that...
 
Over-time, I've stopped trying to trick the D90, and kinda dealt with the fact that just like any video camera, a good amount of lighting goes a far way, and the D90 already has really good low-light ability. (Ask Zac Forsman about low light, those friggin 1.2 and 1.4 lenses make MAGIC).
 
there's really no magic so nothing can be tricked. for a given exposure there are very few combinations of shutter speed and iso that work, since the camera is clever enough to select a fairly slow shutter whenever there's not much light. what it tends to do is overexposing the image, which increases the iso, and all the tricks are ways to avoid this. the easiest way is to just light your grey card one stop over, or find an area that's one stop brighter than your scene and locking exposure. worst case it will select a one stop faster shutter and compensate with a one stop higher iso, but it's *one stop*, it's not like you either get a clean image or a really noisy one. if you're in a 50hz country you can just wave the camera around until the rolling is gone and then you *know* you have a 1/50 shutter, and given that and your selected aperture there's simply just one iso that's correct, no tricks can ever change that.

/matt
 
phew. i'm not the only one who has read this thing 10 + times and still doesn't quite understand exactly how to control which ISO setting is being paired up with any particular shutter.

So i guess since the D90 doesn't have 1/48th, the next closest thing is either 1/50th or 1/60th.

So with a manual lens, in manual mode, we are supposed to close the lens down to F5.6, point it to an accurately lit surface, hit live view and AE lock right away, then open our iris?

How do we then know from take to take if we are achieving the same ISO and shutter? And how do we know when we are at 1/50th or 1/60th?
 
I think I figured it out, at least to my needs, and I think I can distinguish between camera changing shutter and iso.

I still don't know why we have to lock before entering live. I don't think this works, it hasn't for me so far.

Here's my train of thought. Tried this all day. Working like a charm. I think. I hope.

Without a fully manual lens, you cannot dictate a range of ISO's for the camera to auto adjust its way through.

Once you deny the camera the ability to choose an aperture for the LCD electronically, you can control ISO and shutter. I have a huge problem with a/c flicker here I'm in a PAL country, and today it showed me my shutter.

There are instances when I move my cam around and flicker goes away. Still, the day i got my first 1.2 for this thing, I could see a difference in noise level after locking at different f-stops, pointed at the same thing.

If I open up to 1.2, a ton of light is pouring in. The camera is forced to slam its ISO down, and force its shutter fast. There's a red box that's basically a spot meter for the thing. Get the camera on a tripod and do the following.

Enter ilve mode.

Open to 1.2 on a bright day, with some light fixture in the frame (I did this with a shop that had its lights on during the day).

Move the red box to the brightest most blown out point. ISO will slam down all the way, and you should see flicker in the shop from the a/c lights. Because you're at 1.2, you know ISO is all the way down cause that much light's coming in. And you know the shutter's fast cause you see that annoying rolling in the lights. Something to keep in mind.

At 1.2, so far, there's NO WAY ISO has a reason to go up. Even if for a bit, it has no reason to go up beyond a certain point.

Move the red box from the blown out portion gradually across darker parts till you end up at the darkest shadow in that same frame. With the box at the darkest point, ISO may jump from say 200 to maximum 320, cause of that forced 1.2 the cam can't change. It can however change the shutter.

When you move to the darker area, the cam receives a less intense signal from that amount of light across the whole frame. It'll play with ISO between 200-320, but the shutter is what finishes auto ISO's job.

This is seen when I moved the red box to the darkest point in the same frame at 1.2 and the flicker went away. and it went away in steps according to where my red box was.

At its darkest, and its lightest, the image on my pc had little to no noise, and this meant that the camera operated itself within a range of ISO values determined by your forced and manual 1.2, and the TON of light it lets pass through.

So I did something, inspired by the list of fstops and correspoding predicted ISO's kholi posted in the beginning.

I used my red box to choose between high/fast shutter and a low/slow shutter settings by guiding my red box towards the brightest or darkest points in the frame respectively.

I find my slow shutter at 1.2, and record. I close down to 2.0 and point at the same bright and dark spots. My shutter behaves the same, but I'm at a higher ISO, because I'm letting less light in and the camera's ISO ceiling just got higher by a certain amount that I'm dying to figure out.

Did the same up until f16. After f8, crazy noise. Flicker or no flicker I'm controlling with the red box, i.e. my shutter.

So I'm picking my ISO with my manual aperture, and this I would want to control with this cam for two reasons.

a) cleanliness. Over ISO 500 with this cam shows you noise. For SD final out you can make 1000 work. I've never used a de-noiser. I have no practical idea yet what that can do. I could try that today.

b) flexibility with my aperture. If I need to stop up and down, not sure, or for whatever reason, I'll lock at 5.6 max. but that way i can open and close. If I've really set up my environment, I'll lock wide open knowing I'm clean, and knowing in advance that I won't need to open up any further.

I'm setting my shutter for two reasons too:

a) killing that damn flicker.

b) getting non-blurry motion that I'd like to work frame by frame, blur it later type thing. Any other aesthetic reason for speeding up shutter.

For this cam, it would be nice to know what the increments in brightness you can see in the screen as it plays around translate to in ISO and shutter values. But this has worked all afternoon, and I still have more manual control than I did before this clicked.

I can kill my flicker and pick a certain sensitivity at the same time, separating far enough between the too. Its not a complete separation i don't think so but it is the most i could work through. I can make each frame really really sharp or really really blurry the same way. I can use this to control my DOF too, its not totally uncompromising, but better than before.

The cam needs light. And it would be really great if those lights were off a battery or something flicker free. I have a nightlight with me now if I need to plug in cause I'm checking my shutter's status using a/c flicker. The cam needs a fast fast fast fast and fully manual prime lens.

I've bought one heckuva baseplate, and sport a redrock-lookin thingy, and it really really makes a difference with the jell-o.

For set up shots, mostly static I'm really really happy with this cam. As of this aft. I killed the damn flicker and kept the noise out. All I wanted manual controls for so far. Yet.

I'm sorry if this has been figured out, I've been reading over and over and trying and it didn't click till today. I just spat out my method so far this seems to be a good way for me to control the cam. I may sound ignorant on a lot this is my first camera ever, and I've only been into this a year and a bit.

Please let me know if this works, and/or if there are any problems with it, I'm gonna drill holes into this theory all week.

Oh crap this is my first post I'm sorry, just excited. I'm Tarek I live in Beirut. Working is a pain in the ass here. I plan on going back to new york given the appropriate miracle. I love my friggin D90. I love it more today. I'm definitely getting a GH1 but I'm still keeping this thing. I would like to make films. I've made one, with a friend, and it's doin pretty ok. Working on another, life is getting in the way. I've never spent more than 250 dollars on any project. I would like to some day.

Dvx user is great. Kholi is the man. Matthew and Lee are also the man, and the man respectively. Thanks for all the knowledge.

Cheers to all

Tarek
 
some more testing and I'm finding out that ISO can indeed jump a far way up even at f1.2

It's nighttime now. This works during the day so far, or with a big big big amount of light around.

I could be completely wrong.

This is so frustrating.

T
 
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