Canon is playing games....

E

ESTEBEVERDE

Veteran
They are hobbling the firmware in the 5D MKII to protect camcorder sales and to keep headroom for "upgrades".

It is clear by watching all the work around videos that the camera's hardware is capable of so much more than they are allowing it to do.


They need to get over the protectionist crap and serve their customers.

If not we should abandon them wholesale!


P.S. Nikon - You have a great opportunity here to expand your market. Step up and Step up quick.
 
THe questions is "to firmware or not to firmware." I use to think they would release a firmware and fix a lot of the functionality issues. Now I am not so sure...
 
Well, technically we don't know for sure, but I have to say I tend to agree with your theory. Same thing with the HV20 being somewhat gimped to protect the XH-A1. No 30P, 24P embedded in 60i, and no gain control. Should've had a better way to control exposure but I'll let that one slide for now. Then they release the HV30 in black and add 30P, still with 24P embedded in 60i. Now finally, after AVC-HD has arrived they come up with... drum roll please... are you ready? The HV40 with true 24P recording!!!!! Oh my goodness, what a revelation.

Seriously, anything priced at a $1,000 plus should at least have better manual controls and something as simple as two 24P modes, one in 60i while the other a true 24P recording like the DVX did with its two modes.

The sad thing with the 5D mk2 is that it took one huge step forward (35mm DoF / interchangeable lenses) and one huge step back (no 24P). Frankly, I find it kinda insulting that the HV20 has 24P, yet the 5D mk2 which costs nearly 3 times as much can't even have the HV20's pain-in-the-ass version of 24P.

ESTEBEVERDE said:
P.S. Nikon - You have a great opportunity here to expand your market. Step up and Step up quick.
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I really like Canon's products, but if I had to predict the future, it will be another 2 to 3 years of them gimping their cameras until we finally get what we really want from them... a good pro-oriented fully manual / interchangeable lens mount / 35mm sensor HD video-cinema camera under the $9,000 price tag of their flagship the XL-H1s. By then they'll be catching up to Panasonic, Sony, Red, and possibly Nikon.

I hope I'm wrong.
 
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Nektonic said:
I really like Canon's products, but if I had to predict the future, it will be another 2 to 3 years of them gimping their cameras until we finally get what we really want from them... a good pro-oriented fully manual / interchangeable lens mount / 35mm sensor HD video-cinema camera under the $9,000 price tag of their flagship the XL-H1s. By then they'll be catching up to Panasonic, Sony, Red, and possibly Nikon.

I hope I'm wrong.
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Unfortunately, I think you are right. I have all Canon gear - 5DmII, 40D, XHA1, even a Powershot... However, I just don't feel like they will suck it up and deliver. They just don't seem to get it. Heck, they still don't have a tapeless prosumer video camera.

Panasonic has a better history of innovating in this way (24pa and P2). The problem with Panasonic, in my mind, is that they are tied into the 4/3s format, which may work great but just doesn't have the fast lens selection of Nikon or Canon. I think Nikon can make a real play here. Who knows if they will.

Having said all of that, I bought my 5DmII yesterday. It didn't feel as good as it should have though. It's a great camera, it's just definitely not 'the one'. If they added 24p and Aperture priority mode in video, I would feel differently. My thinking now is that within the year I will be moving on to the killer camera... Probably from Nikon or Red. We'll see...
 
30P is disgusting for narrative. End.

I was just gettin' ready to write about how the end of cameras would be this product. But, in reality?

Look at how many people are already hoppin' on the RED EPIC bandwagon? I guess there won't ever really be any end to it. So, one of these companies need to bring it on!
 
I like 30p, 60p, etc etc etc...

The lack of manual controls is what is getting me #$%&^*&(*)!


But, check this out.


If camera had true manual controls and even focus assist/spot focus would they sell more or less Canon lenses at $$$ a pop????


Those Krazy Japanese........
 
saying that tho, i wont be red bandwagoning anytime soon, the 5d is a great camera, nothing around this price range looks as good, for 2500 you can have really beautiful full hd, filmic looking capable stuff. we were looking at getting a few ex1.s with maybe a blade but look at the cost. £4500 Ex1 £1500 35mm adapter + lens etc.

and i challege anyone with that much money to make anything worth choosing that setup as apposed to the 5d. the thing is theres alot of over exposed footage from the 5d;s all over the internet and i think its this that people have the problem with, me included. this is only really an issue if you cant handle the camera.

i fell into the trap of not locking the exposure and that is really the only problem for me, as if you only realise in post there is not getting that detail back. and most of these issues can be controlled by getting manual lens.

As to everyone on this forum ever who complains about not having 24/25p come on you all should know better. i could make a film on a mobile and as long as your script, direction, acting etc etc is there people will watch that shitty mobile phone video.

if your relying on these things. to make great film, i would say to you this, grab a camera and get out there filming. if its not working out id look at one of those things and not the camera.

did anyone see that student remake of one of the end scenes of the village. shitty camera but everything else was there and it brill, they copied M Nights directing perfectly and it works !

oh here it is,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYtrWVxptpo
 
Haha i forgot how scary that film is, just stop going on about this cameras lack of and go out and film, if your all gonna go on about the cam at all go on about the PROS cause theres lots,

sorry but everyone knows whats missing no need to discuss it everyday. when canon/if canon do something about it then we can talk about it. and itl only make this camera even greater.
 
I think the camera has caught on enough that people will make it work and new products will be born that make it work better (Beachtek, etc). For me, a person who uses a Canon 5d package and a Canon XH-A1 on the same project, going to one camera has plenty of advantages. I know there is a rumor floating around that Canon is releasing new firmware to fix the functionality, but I don't think this camera will be improved until the Mark III. Hope I am wrong.

In April I am condensing down to one video/still camera, invest in lenses (Canon, not Nikon), pick up the pieces I need and not look back.

Now if Scarlet was around...
 
FatDaddy said:
I think the camera has caught on enough that people will make it work and new products will be born that make it work better (Beachtek, etc). For me, a person who uses a Canon 5d package and a Canon XH-A1 on the same project, going to one camera has plenty of advantages. I know there is a rumor floating around that Canon is releasing new firmware to fix the functionality, but I don't think this camera will be improved until the Mark III. Hope I am wrong.

In April I am condensing down to one video/still camera, invest in lenses (Canon, not Nikon), pick up the pieces I need and not look back.

Now if Scarlet was around...
Click to expand...


Why Canon lenses?

What lenses in particular?
 
ChristianScott said:
if your relying on these things. to make great film, i would say to you this, grab a camera and get out there filming. if its not working out id look at one of those things and not the camera.
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You're right, a good story is a good story. Good acting is good acting. I'm not saying that I need 24P to make a good film. I've shot films on VHS-C, 8mm video, Digital8, and mini DV all in 60i because that was all that was available before the DVX came along with 24P.

What is annoying about the 5d mkII having only 30P is that it doesn't seem like we are asking a lot to get 24P in this day and age. If Canon decided to introduce this in a Digital Rebel or even the 50D then I'd kinda understand, but this is a $2,500 professional DSLR. And the same with manual controls. If they give the user full manual control in photo mode, why not for the video mode as well? Unless they physically can't. Maybe that is the case, but until they tell us, or if they tell us why, I have to say I doubt that they couldn't technically do 24P from day one.

You're right though. 24P and DoF adapters and a Red One and all the other bells and whistles don't make a good film alone. My reasoning is if you set out to make a good film, why not get the best tools that you can afford to do the job? The 5D mkII shoots great looking video in 30P, it just doesn't seem logical that they would not allow 24P. My reasoning for complaining is that if one is going to be spending $2,500 plus more $$ on lenses, they shouldn't have to jump through extra hoops to get 24P, which has been available to indie filmmakers since the DVX shook things up nearly 7 years ago.

This is why Red and the Scarlet, at least in theory, are appealing to me. The Scarlet is a digital cinema camera. Period. Films, commercials, docs, music videos. That is what it is for. Maybe there will be other uses that some will find for it. But the intention is that it is a digital cinema camera. Their marketing plan may be kinda wacky with all the changes and delays and re-announcements, but what they aim to do is very different from what Canon, Sony, Panasonic, etc. are about. Not saying that the Scarlet will be the end all be all of low budget indie cinema, but is just different.

I harbor no ill will towards anyone that decides the 5D mkII is the right camera for them. Like I said, I've seen some really great looking video shot on it.
 
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ChristianScott said:
As to everyone on this forum ever who complains about not having 24/25p come on you all should know better.
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It's not always about look. It's about workflow. Both 24p and 25p have very important technical justifications.

25p is needed for people shooting in 50hz countries. .

And 24p is needed to deliver video to everything but the web. If you want to go to TV, DVD, Film - any other mainstream distribution channel, 30p has to be processed. You can say, 'no big deal' but what if you want to make a documentary out of all 5d footage? At least going from 24p to 29.97 you can elegantly add frames in. Converting 30p to 24p or even 29.97 is not elegant by any means. This makes the 5DmII the most expensive webcam in history. (I still bought one :huh: )
 
24p. 30p. Pffft. Shoot whichever you prefer...but what if you don't really have a choice as to how the viewer sees it in the end?

Watching movies and SNL tonight on a friend's new 120hz 1080p Bravia TV gave me pause.

His TV was set...by default...with motion smoothing set to 'high'.

Made movies look like video. Made the beloved SNL digital shorts look like the video they really are.

An absolute abomination.

Yet...fascinating.

Love it or hate it...it's the future.

:)
 
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Elton said:
24p. 30p. Pffft. Shoot whichever you prefer...but what if you don't really have a choice as to how the viewer sees it in the end?

Watching movies and SNL tonight on a friend's new 120hz 1080p Bravia TV gave me pause.

His TV was set...by default...with motion smoothing set to 'high'.

Made movies look like video. Made the beloved SNL digital shorts look like the video they really are.

An absolute abomination.

Yet...fascinating.

Love it or hate it...it's the future.

:)
Click to expand...

"In the year 2000...."
 
Nektonic said:
but this is a $2,500 professional DSLR.
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its not tho, its a semi pro.

and it does make sense from canon pov, they have prosumer video cams that cost way more, that can do what your all demanding, what would be the point if the canon xl-h1 if the 5dMII could shoot 24p and had manual controls,

i love this camera as it is now, yes it has cons, but all cameras do. and i know if this camera had those functions it would render all those cameras hvx200, xha1, ex1 etc etc obsolete. making letus adapters etc etc obsolete.

with that said, i know everyone on this forum and most others is hoping red delivers, if this happens what happens to all the small indy companys like letus, shoot35 etc. i feel bad for them,...altho i do need a ffocus and some rails.
 
ESTEBEVERDE said:
Why Canon lenses?

What lenses in particular?
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I just don't want to invest in a lot of manual Nikkon glass. I will be using it for photography and want to have lenses that work for that as well.

I am still researching the lenses (and still have my 5d package).

No upgrades until April for me...
 
The higher the resolution a camera does in 30p, the less it looks like 30p, and more like 24p.

I'll take the extra quality/frames.

As video people, we tend to look at things like shutter and iris. With this 5D mkII, you focus more on ISO. You can also create pre-determined looks in camera by adjusting color, contrast, saturation, and then save them and use them when you want.

Canon probably didn't give us full manual controls because they think their technology in auto mode smarter and better than us! :)
 
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