HPX500 or HPX300 / CCD or CMOS

H

harrymsg

New member
Faced with the dilemma of CCD vs CMOS. Barry's shots from Africa look good but I also understand the issues he pointed out with long lenses and skew using CMOS sensors.

So, since I'm interested in using my Nikons for extreme telephoto for wildlife, it sounds like the HPX300 CMOS-based camera is not a good choice as it will be next to impossible to avoid skewed images at the long end of the zoom without the camera perfectly still. And that is unlikely since working outdoors and zoomed that wind and other vibrations happen all the time. I had a shoot following brown bears in Alaska and they are constantly moving in the river looking for salmon---and I was doing slow pans constantly following them. With my understanding of Barry's comments, this bear scenario would be a perfect candidtate to introduce some serious skew. Also, is skew only introduced if the camera itself is moving, or is it also an issue is something moves quickly through the frame even though the camera is stationary. If true, then no other option but CCD.

I guess I'm looking for some validation of my thoughts on this. Trying to make the difficult decision. Thanks for your input.
 
In that same scenario, I'd say CCD would be the safer choice. However, be aware that you're going to get far more telephoto magnification out of a 300 than you will a 500, because the smaller chips of the 300 will mean that the equivalent lens will be magnified 4x on the 300 vs. the 500.

Skew/wobble happens when the degree of motion in the frame exceeds a certain set amount. It doesn't matter whether it's the camera doing the moving, or the subject. Plant a CMOS camera on a tripod next to the freeway and shoot big trucks speeding past at 60mph, and yes they'll be angled and skewed. Check out the picture of the bus in this Kodak document.

But, the thing is, it only happens if the relative motion is "enough". Will your scenario be enough to trigger it? We see people here all the time claiming that their EX1 doesn't skew -- and if you look at their footage, yeah, they're shooting on wide angle, and that minimizes the relative motion, which masks or minimizes the skew. But if you took that same EX1 and zoomed in to full telephoto, it'd be impossible to pan at any speed whatsoever without introducing noticeable jello. It's all about how much *relative* motion the subject does in the frame. At full telephoto, even very minor camera movements result in significant relative motion in the frame, which means jello jello jello.

So -- if you're planning on using lots of telephoto and moving the camera around, I'd say go CCD and save yourself a world of frustration. But, understand that the shots from the 300 would be noticeably sharper than shots from the 500, so you'll be giving up some resolved detail in exchange for worry-free, skew-free filming.
 
Thanks Barry. Good to talk with someone knowledgable and with experience with this. I figure what good are ultra-sharp images if they are wobbly. Unusable. I'm at a crossroads then re: the HPX500 and it being 2/3". I haven't heard of any glassless, mechanical adapters to mount my Nikkor telephotos to the 500. I'm still hoping for some additional mag.ratio/fov from the 2/3" sensor with 35mm lens (2.5x I believe) but don't know of a way to mount. Do you know of anything that would work? Thanks.
 
you would have to use letus b4 relay lens and letus extreme or ultimate adapter, then you can mount nikon dslr lenses, also cinevate relay lens will be a cheaper and more universal
solution as it would work with other 35mm adapters, not only letus.
 
Tomas Riuka said:
you would have to use letus b4 relay lens and letus extreme or ultimate adapter, then you can mount nikon dslr lenses, also cinevate relay lens will be a cheaper and more universal
solution as it would work with other 35mm adapters, not only letus.
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i guess the TS wants a extreme telephoto that can be achieved by attaching a dslr lens directly to cam with smaller sensor (1/3", 2/"3). the relay and 35mm adater lenses is being used to achieve DOF/FOV of a 35mm camera.

@harry
you can also buy an adapter/relay then attach your nikon zoom lens :D

seriously, does your choice need to be a panasonic? how about the new JVC HM700.
 
I don't know of any direct Nikon->2/3" or Nikon->1/3" adapters commercially available, but if there aren't any, I know that this guy can make one: Les Bosher at www.lesbosher.co.uk. On his site he has a pic of a Canon XL1 Nikon adapter, so it should be fairly trivial for him to make a 1/3" or 2/3" adapter as well, try giving him a shout.
 
Yeah, I actually had Les make me a 1/3" Nikon adapter for a JVC GY-HD100 I had a couple years ago. I liked the camera but it was limited being HDV, 720p 24 and no over/under cranking. I just saw the new JVC HM700---interesting. Just wonder if anyone wants 1/3" chips for broadcast. I think the content should make more of a difference in those cases, but what do I know?
 
In addition to the skew, isn't the presence of flashes also a problem?

Is the move toward CMOS rolling shutter video and still cameras a severe problem that is under reported?

Just wondering, but would a Canon 5DMII be an option? Lots of good glass, huge sensor, tremendous low light capability, and at least one poster says it is possible to get manual settings.
 
harrymsg said:
Yeah, I actually had Les make me a 1/3" Nikon adapter for a JVC GY-HD100 I had a couple years ago.
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Really? Excellent. How did it work?

Just wonder if anyone wants 1/3" chips for broadcast. I think the content should make more of a difference in those cases, but what do I know?
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NBC just bought boatloads of HPX170s and HPX300s, so at least one of the major networks seems to think 1/3" chips are just fine for broadcast...
 
DavidNJ said:
In addition to the skew, isn't the presence of flashes also a problem?
Click to expand...
Yes indeed.

Is the move toward CMOS rolling shutter video and still cameras a severe problem that is under reported?
Click to expand...
I've been trying to report it, but sometimes people seem very resistant to acknowledging obvious facts and observable evidence. There seems to be a lot of "emperor's new clothes" syndrome where people think that newer must invariably mean better, and that isn't necessarily the case here.

I don't know that it's a "severe problem" so much as it is a very different set of circumstances that shooters need to be educated about. There are definitely many circumstances where a CMOS camera will perform in ways that a CCD shooter would never have expected, and so they need to learn what those circumstances are and know how to deal with it.
 
Barry_Green said:
Yes indeed.


I've been trying to report it, but sometimes people seem very resistant to acknowledging obvious facts and observable evidence. There seems to be a lot of "emperor's new clothes" syndrome where people think that newer must invariably mean better, and that isn't necessarily the case here.

I don't know that it's a "severe problem" so much as it is a very different set of circumstances that shooters need to be educated about. There are definitely many circumstances where a CMOS camera will perform in ways that a CCD shooter would never have expected, and so they need to learn what those circumstances are and know how to deal with it.
Click to expand...

As i said in an other post:
the HPX500 has been out for how many years??
If only they could do a little up-grade to it.
Take some of the R&D from the HPX300 and put it into the HPX500.
I'm ready to buy a new HPX500 but i can't bring myself to do it knowing all the R&D that went into the HPX300.
and no, the HPX300 will not work for me.
Paul,
 
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Why would you be relieved by that? Because you already spent your money and would hate to see an "upgraded" product available to the rest of us?

If they aren't planning an upgrade for the 500, that's unfortunate, because I'd certainly pick one up. CMOS just won't work for what I shoot. I've shot with the 500 on a number of occasions, and it's a solid camera, but a few "tweaks" could make it as near-perfect as I think you could get.
 
The perfect 2/3" cam ? Assuming they are going to make it as promised, the Greek's Drama is a full 1080 24p, 2/3" CCD shoulder mounted cam, shooting into either SSD HD/cheap media card using uncompressed RAW codec and works with cheap Nikon SLR lenses.

If this materialized, it will be the ultimate CCD 2/3" cam on the market today. The next in line would be the 2/3" ikonoskop DII.
 
And the "tweaks" would be:

1) Improved VF.....
2) Improved LCD....

And they can bring that R&D over from the HPX300
I'm begging you!!!!.....LOL

Paul,

PS. your killing me with the 1/3 chip set
and i'm not going to spend $1,500 to $2,000 plus for a better VF.
 
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