indies-- chances of success?

How can you shoot a feature without ever making a short?

You can't, really. You can't have it be any good, at least. Any advice to the contrary is just not smart, I'm sorry.

You want to spend enough money to make a good feature, which you should spend enough money to have it turn out great, then you should make smaller investments first. It's like someone saying that if you're a good music video director you will not have any transferable skills to making a short film or a feature film. That's completely untrue, and ridiculous. About 95% of the skills needed to make a music video are the same as making a feature film. The other 5% is working with actors more seriously, which in a music video you don't do as much. But if you can put together a production, which means you know what equipment you need, exactly who to hire, what goes into the general production process, how to make something look good visually, working with other people collaboratively, basically everything is the same no matter what type of work you're doing. The only real difference is the acting, which is obviously significant but even that I would downplay quite a bit. I know I'm not a DP, so I hire a really good DP to shoot my music videos. They turn out looking great.

If I also know that I'm inexperienced working with actors, I just need to hire better actors who have more experience and I can already make up for most of my inadequacies. The short form of filmmaking, I mean short narrative work, helps at least work out some of those kinks so that I can have practice working with actors and understanding what works and what doesn't. But as for what transfers, people seem to act like everything in life is completely unrelated. This just isn't so. The way you live life is the way you play poker. Poker is life, and the better you are at life the better you should be at playing poker -- taking risks, knowing odds, understanding human interactions, fears, desires, etc. All of the skills I got out of running completely unrelated businesses, or earning straight A's in school, are 95% transferable to film. Sure, you have to learn a whole new set of skills as well, but the way you learn those is much the same -- hard work, dedication, long days, etc. It's not like magically your entire character has no bearing on something you've yet to do. It's like when I started martial arts, I did that the same way I did everything else -- intense, and quickly. I graduated college in 3 years, I got my black belt in 13 months (about 2-3 times faster than normal). Sure, I didn't know anything about martial arts before, but I did know that as with anything, if you dedicate yourself to it, work hard, and don't quit when times get tough, and practice more than anyone else, you will be better at it, faster, than anyone else at that level.

So I love it when someone acts like a short won't help you do a feature. OF COURSE IT WILL!!! You location scout for both, you have paperwork for both, you audition for both, you hire a crew for both, you go through the editing process, you direct actors, you have to understand how to cut costs, you figure out catering and snack situations, transportation, etc. It's exactly the same thing only shorter. It doesn't mean you're going to make a great feature if you made a great short, but that's a stupid thing to say anyway because if you made a great short it doesn't even mean you'll make another great short. It's obviously about your ability to tell a story, and that's the only think that isn't totally transferable -- a great short film idea is different than a great feature film idea, because the story has to carry the audience a lot further. But the idea is exactly the same. Don't shoot until you have a great script. When you have a great script, plan everything meticulously, hire only people who are professional and excellent at their jobs, and don't cut corners anywhere that will severely affect the final quality.

The idea that you should waste a ton of money making a feature film, without ever having done a short, is completely laughable. It's like saying there's no reason to spar because sparring isn't real fighting, so you should just go into a fight without ever having been in a simulated fighting match, because they are totally different. Actually, they are no different. The same rules apply -- the more skilled, more aggressive, more confident fighter is most likely going to win. And the most skilled fighter is the one who has done it the most. The same is true with filmmaking. A first-time feature film director who has never done a short is 99% of the time going to make a really lousy feature film. And I'm sorry but what most ultra indie filmmakers think of as a respectable feature film is in fact absolutely terrible. I wouldn't even go so far as to say that 1 in 50 is "ok," by any standards. Because for some reason indie filmmakers often have egos big enough to think that it's acceptable to make lousy work because they made it, even though nobody wants to be subjected to something that doesn't look and sound professional and have real actors in it.
 
How can you shoot a feature without ever making a short?

How can you write a book without writing a short story? Of course you can. Many successful writers can't write short stories.

Shorts are not necessary a step to making a feature. The short movie is a different way of telling the story. That's all. Many successful directors never did shorts, they debuted with features - successful features.

I don't see a problem shooting a feature without ever making a short. Any skill necessary for making a feature can be learned without making shorts. ANY skill.
 
How can you shoot a feature without ever making a short?

You can't, really. You can't have it be any good, at least. Any advice to the contrary is just not smart, I'm sorry.

You want to spend enough money to make a good feature, which you should spend enough money to have it turn out great, then you should make smaller investments first. It's like someone saying that if you're a good music video director you will not have any transferable skills to making a short film or a feature film. That's completely untrue, and ridiculous. About 95% of the skills needed to make a music video are the same as making a feature film. The other 5% is working with actors more seriously, which in a music video you don't do as much. ...

The idea that you should waste a ton of money making a feature film, without ever having done a short, is completely laughable. ...
A first-time feature film director who has never done a short is 99% of the time going to make a really lousy feature film. And I'm sorry but what most ultra indie filmmakers think of as a respectable feature film is in fact absolutely terrible.

There is truth in what you are saying Jonathan, but I disagree with a lot of what you said. Only about 50% of the knowledge of any technical job will transfer into another. In my 9to5 (IT Information Technology) everyjob I've had - even inside the same company - I had to be retrained to do which took anywhere from 9 to 12 months. Much of what you described above is just technical knowledge - the stuff you get in school - it's not the "art" part of it. That can be "taught" over time, but sometimes people just don't have it.

I've NEVER done a short, yet I've done 3 features. The first I just learned from, the second is in blockbuster and third I'm currently finsihing up. True my first 2 features lacked any major appeal - the third one is not that way. I don't bash shorts because you CAN learn the tech side from a short and save yourself time and money, but I've never done a short because I can't wrap my mind around such a simple story. I prefer complex stories with interwoven characters and complexities. So I just can't write a short - I've tried several times. But I can write features.

Also doing shorts run the risk of quickly moving through the process instead of learning as you go. there's also a lot more at stake in a feature, so you give it extra efforts that you may not give a short.

Almost every person I've seen to attempt a feature after making shorts - fails miserably. The reason is that people assume that making a short and feature are one in the same. They are not, in features characters build over time, along with story, complexity, theme, etc. In shorts, it's really about a quick change to the character.

I love my DP for my current movie, although he's really a director at heart. He has made over 5 short films (written / produced / directed). I've had to reclarify major story elements to him as we were shooting the current movie. He'd say "I think all we need to do is add xyz and make a new scene." and I'd be like "No, that doesn't make since with the storyline and contiuity for this part of the movie." Right now, he doesn't get building the story and characters, plus making a very tight plot with no "extras." If a scene can be removed from a movie and the movie still makes since, then the scene needs to be removed.

So my point is, you need practice, no matter if it's shorts, features, music videos, commercials, etc. But no matter what it is, when you change to do something else you'll need to learn in that area as well. Most people want their first feature to be perfect - that's unrealistic. Your first feature will probably be either bad, okay, or mildly good. My first was bad, my second was better but not quite okay, my third is good (IMHO).

Drew, I say jump out there - start wrapping your mind around what you want to do. Spend less than $10K, read the 24 Diary, and make a movie and try to sell, if you don't. Heck you still have a feature - then when you finish take 2 weeks to rest and start again, this time with $25K. Have fun! :beer:
 
Drew, I say jump out there - start wrapping your mind around what you want to do. Spend less than $10K, read the 24 Diary, and make a movie and try to sell, if you don't. Heck you still have a feature - then when you finish take 2 weeks to rest and start again, this time with $25K. Have fun! :beer:

Hey, Drew! Don't!

Go to college. Make shorts on the school's dime with their gear. Enjoy your five-and-a-half years on campus hopefully meeting a bunch of cool people and having some great life experiences.

Then go make a feature. :D
 
Hey, Drew! Don't!

Go to college. Make shorts on the school's dime with their gear. Enjoy your five-and-a-half years on campus hopefully meeting a bunch of cool people and having some great life experiences.

Then go make a feature. :D

Hey Drew Do! hahaha

Just kidding. Stephen's advice is just like mine - it's our opinions. When I was 18 I knew I wanted to make movies but I got a College degree in Computers. I'm not mad about going to college - it was fun - I'd do it almost the same. But I say go to college for something to make money in. One of my crew - went to school for television / movies etc. He freelances work, barely making ends meet. He's extremely talented - maybe even more than myself, yet it's hard for him to make money.

I've done 3 feats, he's done several shorts and now 1 feat as a crew member. I've been able to fund all my feats because of my 9to5 job. He can't fund any feats, he can barely pay for his shorts. Some people may be more lucky/fortunate but some will not.

I say do it because you're going to have to learn someway. And while I'm not against what Stephen is telling you, I think you have to weigh the pros and cons of both. The main thing I personally would have changed is I would have went to school for both computers AND movies, with the minor in movies. I would have moved to a city with a strong acting / movie / tv base (Atlanta, Chicago, New York, LA, Miami, Dallas, etc). Then I would have tried to get a job in movies, but if not went into computers. As soon as I started into my 9to5 I would have worked my 24 Diary plan immediately. Doing my best to make 3 small films in 24 to 36 months. I would work on everybody's shorts that called me for help and would have participated in every movie making program / group. I would have focused only on making movies, spending all my extra cash into lights, audio equipment, camera equipment, and rented out a studio. Here in the ATL you can get a 1300sq ft space for around $700 a month if you look hard enough, and I know someone with 1300sq ft for only $250 a month!

This way you take control of your life and you aren't relying on those around you to put you where you need to be. When I look at Adam, Zak, Justin, Kyle, and Todd (Corrado, I F*cking Hate You, A Lonely Place for Dying, Standing Firm, Drawing with Chalk) what is the commonality - All of them took control of their lives. Many of them didn't go to film school. Many had to find money to push their own projects, even if they did go to school. So that's what I focus on. So far at least 3 of those large projects are on their way to making money and putting their directors / producers in a position where they can focus their efforts on movie making.
 
One of my crew - went to school for television / movies etc. He freelances work, barely making ends meet. He's extremely talented - maybe even more than myself, yet it's hard for him to make money.

I've done 3 feats, he's done several shorts and now 1 feat as a crew member. I've been able to fund all my feats because of my 9to5 job. He can't fund any feats, he can barely pay for his shorts. Some people may be more lucky/fortunate but some will not.

I say do it because you're going to have to learn someway. And while I'm not against what Stephen is telling you, I think you have to weigh the pros and cons of both. The main thing I personally would have changed is I would have went to school for both computers AND movies, with the minor in movies. I would have moved to a city with a strong acting / movie / tv base (Atlanta, Chicago, New York, LA, Miami, Dallas, etc). Then I would have tried to get a job in movies, but if not went into computers. As soon as I started into my 9to5 I would have worked my 24 Diary plan immediately. Doing my best to make 3 small films in 24 to 36 months. I would work on everybody's shorts that called me for help and would have participated in every movie making program / group. I would have focused only on making movies, spending all my extra cash into lights, audio equipment, camera equipment, and rented out a studio. Here in the ATL you can get a 1300sq ft space for around $700 a month if you look hard enough, and I know someone with 1300sq ft for only $250 a month!

This way you take control of your life and you aren't relying on those around you to put you where you need to be. When I look at Adam, Zak, Justin, Kyle, and Todd (Corrado, I F*cking Hate You, A Lonely Place for Dying, Standing Firm, Drawing with Chalk) what is the commonality - All of them took control of their lives. Many of them didn't go to film school. Many had to find money to push their own projects, even if they did go to school. So that's what I focus on. So far at least 3 of those large projects are on their way to making money and putting their directors / producers in a position where they can focus their efforts on movie making.

Definitely. Great post. Take control of your own moviemaking fate. If that includes Film school...then go for it. If it doesn't, then go for that too.

-M
 
While we're all excited about giving Drew career and college advice, let's leave some of that to those who actually know Drew and his parents. In the meantime, this thread is getting hijacked. Some good information, but we're getting a bit removed from the OP's question.
 
It's really all related. because the question is all encompassing:

indies -- chances of success?

Well, we're living in a different world. Some of us still haven't made the transition to the 21st Century.LOL

We are here learning how to make that transition. The equipment is different and the audience wants different entertainment.

The reason why it's hard to make it as indie filmmakers is that we don't have an alliance ... BECAUSE we're independent. So those of us who have been able to raise the money and make B-movies with name actors are waiting to be "picked up".

Once "picked up" they're going to be gone. Adam even has a sailboat all rigged out for the South Seas.LOL

As for Justin, he's already gone ... gone! He's on a higher ground -- won't talk to us anymore. We pissed him off. He's won a festival even. The problem is we don't have respect -- maybe we're even jealous.LOL

Well, it's that kind of business. But for those of us -- ok: FOR ME, this thread and this website is very valuable.

I have a feature film: FELLINIESQUE PLAYERS. It's the best feature I've shot. I know how to make a feature; however, I need to edit a trailer that will sell the feature....

The trailer is ... a short film. I don't know how to do a short film.*sob*

I've gotten Jonathan mad at me. He knows how to do music videos. I bet he can help me with my trailer; but he won't, because I've said that it's a waste of time to do shorts. I'm sorry, I'm sorry....LOL

I spent all day yesterday picking out shots from my feature film BUTTERFLIES IN THE WIND. Today I spent all day editing those shots. I have about one third of it done, but I'm not happy with it.

Tomorrow I work on it again. If I can't do a great trailer (a short film) for BUTTERFLIES IN THE WIND, I won't be able to recover my money on the movie.

So my chances of success as an indie filmmaker is on being able to sell DVDs. This is the difference in marketing movies in the 21st Century. I have to learn how to do trailers, encode them for the web, design a website and develop a marketing strategy for the web. All new stuff.

I can go out right now and do a feature film for nothing. I can do one with a lot of production value for $25,000. I can do a ultra low budget SAG feature film for $125,000, with at least two "name" actors.

What are my chances of success? Zero -- without the marketing skills required by the 21st Century realities.

I don't have the money to do a union movie right now. I don't want to wait for funding. I don't want to be "picked up", because I don't want to sit in a mansion and twiddle my thumbs. I'm a filmmaker. My number one priority is to make movies. SO, I don't want to be "picked up", because I want to stay here and learn how to do trailers.LOL

I need to learn how to do SHORT FILMS so I can sell my features.

Have I lost my marbles? Yes, all of them....LOL
 
How can you write a book without writing a short story? Of course you can. Many successful writers can't write short stories.

Shorts are not necessary a step to making a feature. The short movie is a different way of telling the story. That's all. Many successful directors never did shorts, they debuted with features - successful features.

I don't see a problem shooting a feature without ever making a short. Any skill necessary for making a feature can be learned without making shorts. ANY skill.


Without going into specifics, is it all that necessary to jump into the lake without dipping your feet in first?
 
I think people are far to whiny about the industry. Making films is a learnable skill period, you can learn how to write a script, you can learn how to work a camera, and how to deal with people and actors. You can learn how to turn daily events into compelling stories. A lot of people post whiny blogs about the business because they didn't "make it" after one film. The reality is it takes multiple trial and error sessions for most filmmakers to figure out what they want to do and "make it". Some directors seem to happen over night after one film, but I bet if you look into their past they have been making films since childhood. So they just got there trial and error done early. If you start late in the game it just seems like its taking longer because you are more worried about paying the rent, and its gonna take a few tries to really make something watchable. The reality is it comes down to work ethic, how hard are you willing to work to do what you love, how many doors are you ready to knock on. How many books will you read to learn your trade, ect.

Any way hope that is motivating somewhat,

Graham Robbins
 
Hey Drew Do! hahaha

Just kidding. Stephen's advice is just like mine - it's our opinions. When I was 18 I knew I wanted to make movies but I got a College degree in Computers. I'm not mad about going to college - it was fun - I'd do it almost the same. But I say go to college for something to make money in. One of my crew - went to school for television / movies etc. He freelances work, barely making ends meet. He's extremely talented - maybe even more than myself, yet it's hard for him to make money.

I've done 3 feats, he's done several shorts and now 1 feat as a crew member. I've been able to fund all my feats because of my 9to5 job. He can't fund any feats, he can barely pay for his shorts. Some people may be more lucky/fortunate but some will not.

I say do it because you're going to have to learn someway. And while I'm not against what Stephen is telling you, I think you have to weigh the pros and cons of both. The main thing I personally would have changed is I would have went to school for both computers AND movies, with the minor in movies. I would have moved to a city with a strong acting / movie / tv base (Atlanta, Chicago, New York, LA, Miami, Dallas, etc). Then I would have tried to get a job in movies, but if not went into computers. As soon as I started into my 9to5 I would have worked my 24 Diary plan immediately. Doing my best to make 3 small films in 24 to 36 months. I would work on everybody's shorts that called me for help and would have participated in every movie making program / group. I would have focused only on making movies, spending all my extra cash into lights, audio equipment, camera equipment, and rented out a studio. Here in the ATL you can get a 1300sq ft space for around $700 a month if you look hard enough, and I know someone with 1300sq ft for only $250 a month!

This way you take control of your life and you aren't relying on those around you to put you where you need to be. When I look at Adam, Zak, Justin, Kyle, and Todd (Corrado, I F*cking Hate You, A Lonely Place for Dying, Standing Firm, Drawing with Chalk) what is the commonality - All of them took control of their lives. Many of them didn't go to film school. Many had to find money to push their own projects, even if they did go to school. So that's what I focus on. So far at least 3 of those large projects are on their way to making money and putting their directors / producers in a position where they can focus their efforts on movie making.

Great advice, I think, I mean as far as what you said about going out and doing it.

I'd strongly advise against film school for numerous reasons, but one of which is because it's a waste of money in basically every sense. It doesn't teach you how to make movies as well as actually doing it, and combine that with the fact that it doesn't even guarantee you a half-way decent job, and you have a scam, I'm sorry I don't think that's too harsh of a word. Not when one friend of mine has an MFA from a great film school and struggles to make $2K per month, and when another makes $32K per year and has 3 degrees now, one graduate degree in producing from USC. That's crap pay. There's no use going to film school if you can't even make $50,000 a year coming out, considering even police officers make that much and only need an associates degree at most. Don't waste your money. Learn film on the side.
 
The question really boils down to: "Can I be successful in this business?" I have no idea. But, there are other businesses you can learn and be successful at, without the high barriers to entry like filmmaking. I guess my suggestion is that you become good at something complimentary first (like being a freelance production shooter) then parlay that into running a small production company (ie. handling larger projects, employing freelancers), then parlay that experience into something bigger down the road, like a well made short film. A calling card piece. Fundamentally, the process of making a film, that is a business skill. You are making a product, with the intent to sell it, and make a profit. If you can be successful selling one kind of product (ie corporate films), those skills are transferrable to another product (feature films). But, it takes experience in s-o-m-e kind of business to be able to determine a manageable field of play in your desired industry. It's not like a 1 in 100, or 1 in 50 chance of success. It's when I combine A with B, plus C, D, and E, add in a little of this, a little of that, find a deal here, and a deal there, and get everything to line up, in a very specific way, then I know_for_certain, it will be successful (ie profitable). If you are not sure what the "odds" of your success are with this project, then perhaps it's time to figure out why not. Why don't I understand what it takes to be good at this? And, be certain, beyond a shadow of a doubt, my chances of success. I think to be successful, you need to be experienced at being successful. And, to me, that means knowing where the best places are to put your energy for the highest probability of success. For some, that means starting with the big time. And, failing. But, I like succeeding more than failing. I like trying something small. If successful, then I move up. That's my advice, if your desire is to be successful.

I wonder if theatre people have forums like this... They ask each other, what would happen if we had a venue provided at no cost, and we used low cost actors, and a low cost crew, and did all the designing on the cheap, and had practically no advertising, and our show wasn't very well publicized, what our chances of success would be? If "success" to them is having fun and enjoying their lives, and selling a few dozen or few hundred tickets, then I am sure they would feel "successful." But, community theatre is not a business. And, neither is regional independent filmmaking, for the same reasons.. They're both heavily subsidized by the people and organizations involved. If you're looking for a business that involves cameras and actors, then make corporate videos! :)
 
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The question really boils down to: "Can I be successful in this business?"
...
It's not like a 1 in 100, or 1 in 50 chance of success. It's when I combine A with B, plus C, D, and E, add in a little of this, a little of that, find a deal here, and a deal there, and get everything to line up, in a very specific way, then I know_for_certain, it will be successful (ie profitable).
...
For some, that means starting with the big time. And, failing. But, I like succeeding more than failing. I like trying something small. If successful, then I move up. That's my advice, if your desire is to be successful.

I wonder if theatre people have forums like this... They ask each other, what would happen if we had a venue provided at no cost, and we used low cost actors, and a low cost crew, and did all the designing on the cheap, and had practically no advertising, and our show wasn't very well publicized, what our chances of success would be? If "success" to them is having fun and enjoying their lives, and selling a few dozen or few hundred tickets, then I am sure they would feel "successful."

I think the issue is always where you are and what you have access to. While I agree with much of what you said, I'm just making comments in an effort to stir this thread up again.

For some, it's easy or relatively easy to raise say $100K and pay people, for some it's very difficult. I think I'm a pretty decent filmmaker, but I've never had access to "real money" yet there are those that have less than me.

Movies are different animals than Theater and vice versa. While they are similar in telling a story - that audience expects different things from each. And those involved expect different things.

I believe the biggest issue in movies is the drain on time and resources and the trust that others have in "the vision" that they are following. Like I've said before, when the main filmmaker behind, "Facing The Giants" went to make the movie for $10K, he probably called up a few of his film buddies and they didn't mind working for free because they trusted him because of his track record. I pretty much know that's how much of "The Signal" out of Atlanta worked this way, that's how they were able to shoot a movie for $50K.

But as always when I see someone say I shot for $15K or $40K, I'm always like "yeah right" because what they are saying was that was their direct cost, not their labor cost. The labor cost isn't free, it's just differred. So to me there's really no such thing as a ultra-low budget film, because we are all worth money. But what makes a good ultra-low budget is having a knowledgable crew/cast - and that's the problem. How do you get that for differred pay? The anwser is the paradox - by buiding releationships and doing other projects.

I believe if someone wants to be profitable they must create a plan to build over time, gain experience, create connections. Adn they must take the load of learning all aspects of filmmaking to fill in the gaps left by the void of money. The good thing about this approach is it teaches you what each person does and their importance. The bad thing is that one doesn't become perfect in each aspect, so all aspects are just done marginally well, AND there's more stress put on the filmmakers.
 
Success would have to be defined to properly answer this question.
If one makes an indie film in hopes of gaining experience and exposure, indie films have long been a way to be successful.
If one wants to make money from one, one could get a low-paying job and make much more.

This has never been a business for those motivated by money. Money follows those who rock at it. That comes from passion.
 
Citizen Kane is considered to be the No. 1 film ever made. Orson Wells was is considered a genius of cinema.

Was Orson Wells a successful filmmaker?
 
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