HDCAM or XDCAM HD.. which one?!!!

Maybe ..

I think I will have to wait for Sony to release an update for the 700 with slo-mo option , or maybe introduce a new model with such feature. Slo-mo is very important for my business .... :undecided
 
aboammar said:
Thanks for the link GuyB ... I did some search, and it seem Wafain products will produce a much better image quality than Flash XDR, so I am going with Wafian HR-F1 .. here is its link:
http://www.wafian.com/HR-F1.htm

Thanks for your help ..
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I doubt it is going to be better quality, the FlashXDR allows for 100Mbps MPG2 1920x1080 4:2:2 which is pretty much the same quality as uncompressed, you aren't going to find a codec offering anything better, only as good. The only difference is the 10 vs 8 bit which certainly can be important for some. However an update for the XDR for uncompressed 10bit 4:2:2 is coming so that difference will disappear.

Then look at the ergonomics of it, the FlashXDR may not be a tiny little box but is is small enough to be portable and even mount off some cameras, and be battery powered. That HR-F1 is 29lbs and not far off a foot in all directions.

They are totally different beasts ergonomically for similar results, if you need to be able to move much with your camera, to me the F1 is out.

Oh, and then note the price. FlashXDR about US$5K, F1 = US$17K
 
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I learned that CineForm HD codec produce the best image quality ... better than any other codec, especially when you want to use greenscreen.

I dont know .. but, If the quality of Flash XDR, and Wafian HR-F1 are the same, then why the huge price difference?!!
 
Well when the 10bit uncompressed option for the FlashXDR comes out it will be better than the F1 as the F1 is just a compressed version of this same image which can never be better quality, only smaller file size.

The F1 is a much bigger box with internal drive and LCD, but to me, given the price of the XDR it is way overpriced but thats just my take on it.
 
Thanks GuyB ... I still not convinced 100%

I do not need uncompressed video as it is not easy to edit it. It is not manageable in complex project. Also, the bitrate in CineForm is much higher than that of FlashXDR.

Since Wafain products dose not record in MPEG (GOP) like Flash XDR, I think the motion of the video will be smoother .. I think.

Here is Wafain respond when I asked them:

The comparison against Flash XDR is not really a useful one because they are different products for different purposes. While I have not tested one, the Flash XDR seems like a good tool for field acquisition where quality is not the top priority, but mobility is. The Flash XDR records into MPEG format, while we record onto CineForm, AVI, and MOV (higher quality). The Flash XDR uses DCT compression, we use wavelet. The Flash XDR can record minutes, Wafian systems can record hours, etc.

CineForm technology is ideal for production and post-production because it is based on wavelet compression, which derives higher quality images than that of tape and other recorders that use DCT compression.

Wafian systems use variable bitrate recording, this means that quality is always maximized, but file size remains manageable.

Our recorders offer a unique setting specific for green screen recording. In this mode, the recorders keep more bits (information) around the edges of your subject, so that your keying is more accurate.

Many of our clients have used Sony cameras for production, and CineForm files are currently supported by Premiere Pro, After Effects, Final Cut Pro, Vegas and others. You can also easily export your files to DPX format for editing with Avid and in the near future, Avid will likely support CineForm files directly (without a conversion).
 
I know that you're set on Sony products, but Cineform also has a very good Red workflow. They have software that will convert your Red footage directly to Cineform files in one step, and then it's a Cineform workflow from there on out.
 
It would seem that Wafain just told you what I said but you accepted it from them but not me, go figure...

They are very different beasts, one is portable and one is not, but so condem the XDR because it uses DCT Compression is just marketing.

Don't get confused about the bit rate differences as Cineform needs much more bit rate to achieve the same quality than MPG2 does, it is intraframe and so it takes no advantage of the comparison between frames to reduce bandwidth, it is in effect a very inefficient compression scheme compared to Interframe codecs. On the flip side it takes less processing power to encoded and decode as the codec is simpler to process.

Don't forget you can take the uncompressed or 100Mbps MPG2 long GOP and convert it to Cineform for editing, your not stuck in one codec and if cineform is as good as they claim there should be no quality loss.

I suggest you get hold of some of the samples from Convergent Design and judge for yourself what you think, or buy it from someone who agrees on a fair period to test and refurn for refund if you are not satisfied.

In summary, the F1 won't come near to having >3 times value as the Flash XDR offers but by all means spend $17K on the F1, its not like I have shared in Convergent Design. I know were I'd spend my money though.
 
Hi GuyB .. please do not get me wrong .. I am just searching for the best picture quality can get .. and to me, I find it very hard to believe that a device costing 3 times less could provide the same quality??!! Something must be missing here!!
 
kenn michael said:
I know that you're set on Sony products, but Cineform also has a very good Red workflow. They have software that will convert your Red footage directly to Cineform files in one step, and then it's a Cineform workflow from there on out.
Click to expand...

I don't want any conversion in the work flow ... time consuming. Can RED footage be used directly with any NLE?
 
FCP just came out with a plugin for native red footage, premiere cs4 with update has it, avid does not but has a solid workflow for it. or so they claim. i don't think vegas does yet...
 
I'm not a camera expert but the Wafian is about $30,000 alone. Now if a complete Red system is around $30,000 as Barry said, besides the Red work flow, I would definitely go with the Red camera and just buy a couple of those solid state hard drive. Plus, the quality is top of the line or better.
 
The Wafain I am considering is HR-F1, and its price is $17,000.

Are you saying that the quality of the RED camera is already better than HDCAM or XDCAM HD with Wafain DDR? I am confused!!
 
red is a touchy issue and there are a million threads about it. my advice is, ask your DP what camera he thinks he can give you the best image possible on out of all those choices and just go with that. if you don't have someone that KNOWS how to use Red, then ur footage will most likely not come out very good. ur gonna feel more of the power and quality in more capable hands rather then just thinking about what camera is better then what. each one suites to different needs.
 
What everyone is trying to say is that the mpeg2 codec is smarter than other codecs like cineform, red code, dvcprohd, etc.
Sony Ex1 at 35Mb is as smart as DVCPROHD at 100Mb. Because of the added complexity it is harder to edit. Takes longer to decode. mpeg 4 is even smarter than mpeg2 that is why it is harder to edit.
This is a simple break down of the codecs they are all pretty smart but this should explain it to you.
 
I like to play is safe, so, I think I am going with Sony camcorder, and Wafain DDR .. the question is now is which camera model should I go with?
 
How about a sony and an iohd and use prores? Why not use an EX3 and shoot to disk/hardrive. That may give you arguably better image than PDW-700 to tape. Clients will still respect the EX3 as it is a Sony XDcam and the quality will be amazing!
I believe you should just rent a f900 or so when you need it. Those cameras are pretty old and will be replaced soon. That is why the EX3 can compete with them at a fraction of the price. Now if you just want to show off for clients then go ahead and buy a big ass camera, but if quality is what you want get the EX3 and a super lense.
 
Nik Manning said:
How about a sony and an iohd and use prores? Why not use an EX3 and shoot to disk/hardrive. That may give you arguably better image than PDW-700 to tape. Clients will still respect the EX3 as it is a Sony XDcam and the quality will be amazing!
I believe you should just rent a f900 or so when you need it. Those cameras are pretty old and will be replaced soon. That is why the EX3 can compete with them at a fraction of the price. Now if you just want to show off for clients then go ahead and buy a big ass camera, but if quality is what you want get the EX3 and a super lense.
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Don't forget, you will need a Macbook pro / mac pro to use an AJA IOHD. The deliverable will be a hard drive or Blu-Ray Data Disc.

With the PDW-700, you have a deliverable as a 50GB optical disc.

With the PDW-700 record both to XDCAM HD422 to optical disc and ioHD ProRes422 to MacPro/Macbook Pro to Hard Drive.
 
Nik .. Since I already got an EX3, your idea is worth trying. I will be getting Wafain, and Letus35 Ultimate to be used with my EX3, and I will see the results.

By the way, do I have to use a new lens with Letus35 Ultimate, or I can use the factory EX3 lens? I am still not 100% clear on the setup and configuration :huh:

EC .. thanks, but I am a Windows person, not Mac.
 
I can understand getting the wafian as a long term solution as it will always give hd cam sr results no matter what new camera comes out. If it works in your workflow then do it.
 
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