to all the 30p haters

24 fps controversy

24 fps controversy

I just thought I'd add my two cents, since everyone seems to be an expert on the subject of 24 fps. First off, this always seems to happen anytime a new forward thinking technology or concept is introduced. We immediately try to tear the production tool down by pointing out it's flaws and "what it don't got." This could either be because someone just made a purchase for a prosumer HD camera or 35mm adapter setup and is having buyers remorse or they're just plain comfortable in their old ways; change can be hard. Secondly to the 24 fps issue, I'll be candid and say I prefer the 24 fps but that may only be because I've been conditioned to that. 24 fps and "cinematic" have become synonymous with each other because perhaps as one earlier post pointed out, DOF and color grading (other just as essential "cinematic" elements) aren't applied to 29.97 fps. In any event this debate could go on and on here and so since I'm really not an expert in 24 fps, let's put this debate to bed by inviting you to read:

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117983864.html?categoryid=1009&cs=1

It's an interview with James Cameron who I'm sure all of you will consider an expert. Be sure to read through the entire article where he discusses frame rate.

Lastly, let me just say, at the end of the day what ultimately determines the value of a production is it's response by it's intended audience. Some productions may have a poor production value aesthetically or what we'd consider poor but then it has over a million views on youtube. Who's to say how good something is, or what equipment was used (5DMK2) when it achieves it's intended take away. Your average person which essentially is our audience doesn't know jack squat about dynamic range, DOF or this holy grail 24 fps, they just want to be entertained.

Just my two cents though.

Bests,
Denver
 
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denverkr said:
. . . Lastly, let me just say, at the end of the day what ultimately determines the value of a production is it's response by it's intended audience. . . . Your average person which essentially is our audience doesn't know jack squat about dynamic range, DOF or this holy grail 24 fps, they just want to be entertained. Just my two cents though. Bests, Denver
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WoW, a GREAT 2 cents worth for sure . . AND . . IMO absolutely RIGHT ON! This is what I been saying for the last six months.

HD has advanced to the point where with the broadcast and reproduction equipment that is out there and the amount of HD being tossed around, a viewer absolutely cannot tell the difference from one HDV, P2, AVCHD, or ??? You name it. I mean, we have cell phones and hand held ipod's running AVCHD which obviously puts this MP4 Format to the extremes on compressability extremes.

We ran all kinds of tests with various formats shooting the same exact scenes with three different HD formats and then mixed the order for everyone of the scenes and in the end when the viewers rated the results (so we could figure out what to do with equipment and workflow requirements) the viewers could not tell the difference between a $600 palmcorder and a $6000 HD solid state. In other words, why would we put all the time, cost, and energy into one format when the viewer liked all three formats equally. Obviously, camera controls come into play which gives the producer more opportunity and composition but in the end the image was acceptable compariably.

Thus, in the end we went cheap, easy to use, and replaceable with a host of inexpensive attachments and accessories with long reach and a cheap wide angle for under a 100 bux for the close ups.

What it boils down to is . . composition, style, and creativity. I've written a book on it from the users perspective (the viewer is the user) and therein they care less about how you got it. What turned me to think this way? A guy with a couple HV30's kicked our wedding productions and we had over $15,000 worth of gear in place AND had to manage 270 GB's of hard drive date on biggie dual xeon dual core machines and worked hard to make our production while he used a macbook pro and had it done in a few days. In fact, that same guy is now doing "same day edits" (which we are too now) :thumbup:

Again, that's "Composition - Style - Creativity" by ME Dr Dimento :huh:
 
Duly noted Dr Dimento, to add to that, professional photographers get a little unnerved every time some beginner goes out and buys a Rebel EOS for under a $1,000 K at BestBuy or Costco and wants to break into professional photography. Their concern is technology and manufacturing processes have reached a point where professional tools are now accessible to anyone. If I were to break out my crystal ball, I'd predict that the video industry will follow suit, making professional video tools accessible to anyone who wants to pick up a camera and make a Spielberg feature, but in the end the tool is only as good as the worker's hands it's in. So the elements Dr Dimento pointed out "Composition - Style - Creativity" are as sound as ever. And as for us in a rapid changing industry I came a cross a good rule of thumb when considering making the next big purchase, if isn't 10x then what you're already accustomed to, it's probably good to wait until there is. Or a quote I heard once, "Fix it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without." Sound advice in this economy. Anyways, not trying to sound all philosophical or anything but these are true principles.

Bests,
Denver
 
denverkr said:
. . . professional photographers get a little unnerved every time some beginner goes out and buys a Rebel EOS for under a $1,000 K at BestBuy or Costco and wants to break into professional photography. . . Denver
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Thanks "denverkr" :dankk2: And to this part above, with the economy dropping, the local "Digital Debbies" are picking up the Nikon D40 through D90's at Best Buy and hitting the wedding market through friends and other "girl" connections at a fraction of the costs of Pro Photographer in order to supplement the household income and just shoot the wedding and give the folks a color corrected and cropped and effects Photo CD using HP software (or similar) that came with their printer and the bride runs to Wal-Mart of Walgreens and keeping her wedding costs low because of the economy . . prints her own or through some online printer at a fraction of the costs of the pro. Here the market as totally turned into tub scum. If it were not for our broadcast we'd be crying and even that client has canceled the first months shoot next month in the next twelve month contract (contract is for 5 shows a month or a total of 52 for the year whichever comes first.) But the paper (contract) won't help us with January's budget of "zero" income.

Thus what business is out there, more important than ever is the whole "Composition - Style - Creativity" to keep the ship afloat. To highlight this for the newbies or those wondering "what to do" in this baaaaad market, we recently did a corporate video that was at or slightly below market wherein the client was almost ready to cancel but we threw in a plant tour for their board meeting video and put some hype and music intro's to the Board Meeting, Presentations, and Plant Tour, and put a couple extra hours in the project including some dolly shots of their heavy duty mobile equipment and the words today from the client were (copy/paste) . . .

"I just wanted to tell you that the video looks great! Well worth the wait. Very professional and the audio sounds great. I'm going to watch it a second time for any revisions and then I'll pass it on to our CEO to watch. . . . "​

I post this comment not to brag but to say, we put some extra effort into the project over the norm and especially because of the market condition which cost us but we focused on giving them a video that "came alive" instead of the typical "stuffed shirt" corporate stuff and had to work hard on the audio even to include export/import to fix the technical presenter when he walked away from the mic for the entire technical presentation plus worked the PPP into the video with overlays to point out things he did not.

The marketing director when on to say, that she is going to insist that we do all their work from now on just because we obviously put more into our work and that the video style was creative and exciting for their company AND that they'd like to do a website AND corporate mailer. Where did all this come from? Not our SD camera but . . .

COMPOSITION - STYLE - CREATIVITY -- Again I'm no expert at it but when hobbiest and amateurs with HV30's were making my stuff look below standard we went to get down and dirty film school last year by going to ever conference we could make it to in order to rub shoulders not with camera makers or software makers but with "fellows" in the business to "see" and "learn" how and what to do then take it a step further.​

"denverkr" makes a good point about wearing it out before jumping into the next "bleeding edge" technology before "making it" with the old and making it is earned not by having the best camera but the BEST "Composition, Style, and Creativity"

Happy shooting to all and have a Happy New Year. Now I'm off to Yahtzee for another 17 mins before 2009 :)
 
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denverkr said:
I just thought I'd add my two cents, since everyone seems to be an expert on the subject of 24 fps. First off, this always seems to happen anytime a new forward thinking technology or concept is introduced. We immediately try to tear the production tool down by pointing out it's flaws and "what it don't got." This could either be because someone just made a purchase for a prosumer HD camera or 35mm adapter setup and is having buyers remorse or they're just plain comfortable in their old ways; change can be hard.
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Do you not get how simplistic and insulting that is?

There are other possibilities, such as recognizing that change simply for the sake of change is foolhardy, as well as having already gone through many, many possibilities and understanding what works best for you. If a new tool doesn't have it, then it doesn't have it.


http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117983864.html?categoryid=1009&cs=1

It's an interview with James Cameron who I'm sure all of you will consider an expert. Be sure to read through the entire article where he discusses frame rate.
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Cameron's preference is Cameron's preference. That's really all you can say about it. It's not a universal truth.
 
denverkr said:
First off, this always seems to happen anytime a new forward thinking technology or concept is introduced. We immediately try to tear the production tool down by pointing out it's flaws and "what it don't got." This could either be because someone just made a purchase for a prosumer HD camera or 35mm adapter setup and is having buyers remorse or they're just plain comfortable in their old ways; change can be hard.
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Nonsense.

Selling a basic and willful lack of control as forward thinking technology is silly, conversations that aim to wrestle control over basic functionality are neither buyers remorse nor dogmatism.


I read your use of 'change can be hard' here as 'stop struggling and take what the corporations want you to have, ask for no more'.

denverkr said:
In any event this debate could go on and on here and so since I'm really not an expert in 24 fps, let's put this debate to bed by inviting you to read:

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117983864.html?categoryid=1009&cs=1

It's an interview with James Cameron who I'm sure all of you will consider an expert. Be sure to read through the entire article where he discusses frame rate.
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Appeal to authority (argumentum ad verecundiam) only works on those who lack their own opinion.

Citing someone's subjective opinion certainly does not 'put the debate to bed'.


denverkr said:
Lastly, let me just say, at the end of the day what ultimately determines the value of a production is it's response by it's intended audience. Some productions may have a poor production value aesthetically or what we'd consider poor but then it has over a million views on youtube. Who's to say how good something is, or what equipment was used (5DMK2) when it achieves it's intended take away. Your average person which essentially is our audience doesn't know jack squat about dynamic range, DOF or this holy grail 24 fps, they just want to be entertained.
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The entertainment argument is peripheral, I often see it presented in these kinds of conversations as an 'either or' proposition.

What do you want, DOF and 24p or a good film, because you realise DOF and 24p don't make a good film don't you ?

Yes we realise.
 
I think that in some not so distant future orthodox 24p + exagerated overusage of DOF + unmotivated graininess + over-colouring + (optional) shaky takes will be considered to be as dated, anachronistic as it was the case with split-screen and intense zooming in "films" from the seventies. As an antidote against nevrotic 24p fixation, watch some of Eric Rohmer's films. Rohmer's cinematography is utterly "barebone". 24p or whatever-p does not mean anything for his movies where conversation "overshadows" the picture. While Rohmer uses available DOF, it is often underexploited. Why? Rohmer thinks, as many of the great directors, that great films are primarily existentially meaningful stories. Lightning is also kept to a strict minimum. No fx, no effects. No rack focusing. No TV-like change in DOF-depth. Simple, primitive... yet.... exquisite picture taking. Had Rohmer used a Sony EX1 (24p/25p/30p) or a Canon 5D Mark II (30p), his films would have remained as exquisite. I could have written tons about why too much "cinematography" kills stories. I think that lot of the misconceptions about, 24p, DOF and some recent "colouring" fashions may come from film-schools, where easy "recipes" are served to students.

The 24p/30p debate is, in my opinion, not an aesthetic, but a business issue. Would you, ladies and gentlemen, do me the favour to load your batteries and shoot real stories with your 5D Mark II and leave the test area to the real testers ?
 
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Read the Cameron thing....

"SMPTE tests done about 15 years ago showed that above 48 frames the returns diminish dramatically, and 60 fps is overkill. So 48 is the magic number."

How do you get in camera sound at 48 fps?
 
Al MacLeod said:
Read the Cameron thing....

"SMPTE tests done about 15 years ago showed that above 48 frames the returns diminish dramatically, and 60 fps is overkill. So 48 is the magic number."

How do you get in camera sound at 48 fps?
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The same way you get sound at 24p fps.
 
danap said:
I think that in some not so distant future . . . . .

blah blah blah . . . .


. . . . where easy "recipes" are served to students.
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People simply want control over their cameras, this does not exempt them from good film making.

danap said:
Would you, ladies and gentlemen, do me the favour to load your batteries and shoot real stories with your 5D Mark II and leave the test area to the real testers ?
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Yet another long post telling people to - 'stop posting and shoot' :crybaby:

The irony hurts. :)
 
Al MacLeod said:
With the HVX200? I thought the over sixty setting were sans sound. How do you do it?


edit...Opps....canon area...sorry
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Ah ! I see !

I thought you were talking about 48 fps in general, not a specific camera.

You could always record into a dedicated digital recorder and sync it in post.


P.S. if you are after sound at 48 fps - and the HVX2000 looses sound over 60 fps - you should be ok ?
 
danap said:
I think that in some not so distant future orthodox 24p + exagerated overusage of DOF + unmotivated graininess + over-colouring + (optional) shaky takes will be considered to be as dated, anachronistic as it was the case with split-screen and intense zooming in "films" from the seventies. . . .
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Man-O-Man do I agree with this comment! This whole fetish with 24p and hand held camera moving around is getting ridiculous. Geez, I'm a major "Bourne" fan and have the special "security box" set but I have to say this about the series . . the first was awesome cinematography and color grading but the last I nearly got up and left because that steady moving back and forth motion almost made me sick. I actually got dizzy (like I'm not most of the time anyways) and I've spoken with a lot of people about the movie and so far only one of them has said that they liked the camera movement. Moreover, only that one liked the 3/4 black screen that represented the back of somebody's head in the film while all the others said, "What's with this? Shooting the back of peoples heads?"

IMO, all this fuddy duddy camera games will eventually date a movie and like said above will classify it as a "old millennial" thing (or some really hot buzz phrase that means OLD). Geez, if going to do a steadi cam or mobile shot . . one can get a nice right for under a grand now or even under 600 on ebay and the movement is practically a gonner . . or just get Apple FCS2 and use motion. Not hard.
 
All that 24p vs 30p discussion got thrown upon us because the 5D is lacking 24/25P. Otherwise nobody would talk about it. Everybody woudl shoot the way he likes it, about 80% of us would do so in 24/25p. Period.

Fortunately there is a workaround in post with, for example, Twixtor. Some people say one is going to force a device to do something it wasn't built for. IMO same with 35mm adapters. So, where's the point?

Finally: I believe that our brains have to switch to "campfire mode" to be able to visualize told stories. 24p, shake and flicker help a lot to reach that state. This behaviour is very ancient and might be defined genetically. But after 10.000 years of 30p our view - and our genetic codec - might change... :)
 
The proof is in the pudding!

Shoot what you like how you like and let the viewer(s) vote with their eyes and recommendations. ;-)
 
ESTEBEVERDE said:
The proof is in the pudding!

Shoot what you like how you like and let the viewer(s) vote with their eyes and recommendations. ;-)
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Thank you! That is what I been saying for the last year and people just keep saying that the specs and the right gear is everything. And, more than anything else it's about Composition - Style - Creativity !!
 
drdimento said:
Thank you! That is what I been saying for the last year and people just keep saying that the specs and the right gear is everything. And, more than anything else it's about Composition - Style - Creativity !!
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Not really. If you don't manage to realize your idear because of the limitations of your tools, Composition, Style and Creativity might become quite frustrating.
 
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