ilauzirika
Boring Senior Member
wich were your settings in that one?
New HMC Owner Requests Help - Defective Camera or Me Dumb?
- Thread starter AGMedia
- Start date
wich were your settings in that one?
Inaki shoot me I cant remember,
but I believe I shot with F1 and modified it
master ped was between -30 /-20
and the Chroma level was around +6 .
Im not sure about this but I will try it again later.
Thats another thing I thought that the AVCCAMviewer would be able to read this out of the clips .
Newsbreak
: These were not the settings .I did it again and f3 and f4 standard setting where better.
The orginal is not that red screen grabs out of PowerDVD 7 .
but I believe I shot with F1 and modified it
master ped was between -30 /-20
and the Chroma level was around +6 .
Im not sure about this but I will try it again later.
Thats another thing I thought that the AVCCAMviewer would be able to read this out of the clips .
Newsbreak
: These were not the settings .I did it again and f3 and f4 standard setting where better.The orginal is not that red screen grabs out of PowerDVD 7 .
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My genuine thanks for the suggestions/info you shared. I didn't do anything "radical" in my initial tests, and that led me to pose my question before I commenced the exchange headache. Much of my footage was on "auto" while cycling through the various scene files.
As I write this I'm currently transcoding (MainConcept, to DVCPROHD) a second set of test footage based very much on your notes.
If I am unable to create something I think is comparable to some of the other less noisy sample footage I've seen posted -- then I'll post some of what I've done for opinions before I exchange it for another one or something different.
Again, my genuine thanks!
In the past few months I've shot with both a Sony EX1 and HV30. I've worked with dozens of cameras, both still and motion, over the past decade. Thanks!
My thanks! I'm currently transcoding a new set of tests and I've specifically followed your advice.
My thanks for your note! My religion forbids me from using "gain" in any form (that's a joke, but gain is always turned off on any camera I'm using).
Regarding DRS ("dynamic range stretcher") -- it was on "level 1" for some of the earlier test footage. In my follow up tests that are transcoding as I write this it was turned off.
Again, my thanks!
My thanks. I'm in love with that blonde in your church video!
In theory I've got a calibrated monitor that far exceeds all HD requirements. However, I will follow your recommendation and use the camera to play the recorded files directly on a HD television for the purpose of comparison.
Again, my thanks!
I wouldn't call that "ghastly," but it certainly does look like something that could have come from my HMC.Here is a shot taken with the 151 in F1 720/25p, no gain, extracted raw from AfterEffects from the AVCHD file. No processing at all.
The noise is ghastly.
I'm currently in the midst of a secondary test, so I've still got some ways to go before I reach a conclusion. My question to you, specifically regarding that photo -- did you have the DRS engaged? At this early point I'm suspecting that DRS is nothing short of "pure evil," in terms of noise generation -- even the lowest setting ("1") enough to almost trash and image.
Thanks!
Coming from the photography world I would guess that the highly saturated one ("01") screams of what we Nikon guys called "Canon color." But -- that's just a guess.
The "significant" noise I was getting in my earliest tests even showed up in bright skies... this is what led me to ask my question before pulling the trigger on the return/exchange thing.
Again, my thanks!
Mr. Green or Barry (whichever you prefer),
My thanks for your response. Assuming I continue down the HPX/HMC journey -- I intend to buy your books/videos on these models. I've also been following your posts and am grateful for the knowledge and experience you have shared.
As I write this I'm transcoding a final set of tests. If I am unable to resolve this rather "significant" noise issue I will proceed to exchange this model in the hope that I'm experiencing some kind of defect. As I responded to someone -- in early tests I even got significant noise in bright skies (and anything gray came out as a dance festival of colored spots).
Again, my thanks!
Mike Harvey
Veteran
I should point out that when the first test footage was posted when the first HMC's were released a few months ago and I, along with others, transcoded it using the Mainconcept DVCPro transcoder Panasonic gives away... and the 720p footage looked like crap. Things may have changed with later releases of the transcoder. But if the footage you're looking at is DVCProHD 720p made using the transcoder, that alone may explain your issues. Download a trial version of either Cineforms Neo HD or Neo Scene and try that if you're having issues viewing AVCHD natively. Or, if you have the latest version of FCP, try transcoding using Prores (or what ever it is... I'm on CS4 so I can't remember).
Another thing is to try shooting in 1080p. I remember the transcoder did a greatly better job transcoding it.
Another thing is to try shooting in 1080p. I remember the transcoder did a greatly better job transcoding it.
Justyn
Veteran
Looking at your stills, certainly of your parents outside.., looks like the white balance is not set right. Their faces are way too red. Having a wonky white balance will certainly muck up some video.
I too firmly back up Barry's statements. This camera is lightyears better in terms of it's noise than the original HVX... and just looks tons better than the A1. Even your still you posted at the top showing both.. The 150 looked alot better.. might be the shot that has something to do with that as well.
I would also recommend doing your tests hooked up to a broadcast monitor. I need to do that with the HMC.. I'm just kind of following the things I did on the HVX.
personally I'm shooting everything in B-press gamma and looks really clean to me. I shot almost all of the HVX on that as it was the lowest noise. Not sure if that's the case on the 150, but I'm digging it.
Thanks for the kind words about the church video. That blond is really cute and quite a nice person too. I think she would bring tons of guys to our church for sure..
I too firmly back up Barry's statements. This camera is lightyears better in terms of it's noise than the original HVX... and just looks tons better than the A1. Even your still you posted at the top showing both.. The 150 looked alot better.. might be the shot that has something to do with that as well.
I would also recommend doing your tests hooked up to a broadcast monitor. I need to do that with the HMC.. I'm just kind of following the things I did on the HVX.
personally I'm shooting everything in B-press gamma and looks really clean to me. I shot almost all of the HVX on that as it was the lowest noise. Not sure if that's the case on the 150, but I'm digging it.
Thanks for the kind words about the church video. That blond is really cute and quite a nice person too. I think she would bring tons of guys to our church for sure..
I have been shooting is 720 60p, and I have been using the MainConcept transcoder (a recent download for editing in CS4). If the current test (transcoding as I write) is a bust I will follow your advice before returning the unit. I do intend to try the Cineform -- I've used their stuff in the past and was pleased with their results.
My thanks!
I haven't posted any stills -- that was someone else with the "parents" in front of Christmas lights -- and those didn't look bad to me -- vastly cleaner than what I was getting with my earlier test footage that included dancing noise in bright blue skies.
Assuming I continue with this unit -- I will follow your advice regarding B-Press and will very carefully experiment with it.
Again, all my thanks!
The shots where all white balanced but for some reason they are "redder " then the original and I did not want to CC them.
Even that of the Xha1 but I was trying to show noticable grain /noise. The one shot with the HMC looks pretty good but even under broaddaylight the black shirt had noise and everything else was clean .
Basicly I'm looking for the right setting that would reduce or totaly eliminate this shooting under broaddaylight ofcourse.
I havent noticed noise in overexposed area's as AGMedia mentioned.
Yes I know the XHA1 can get very noisy but when it's setup right its very clean even on HDV.
I reset my camera last night but I'm still not what satisfied.
On a JVC SD broadcast monitor /component out theire is almost no noise visible .
But once I hook it up to and HTDV @ 720 p through HDMI there is a noise pattern al over the image which as I mentioned earlier looks like a photoshop filter.
I didn't post my parents picture because I thought they're bad, I was actuallly quite impressed and wanted to see what you guys think. By the way this camera handles fireworks pretty well. Im still diggin ofcourse the reason I joined this thread is to get a better image out of the HMC and share my experience with it.
Amen.
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Justyn
Veteran
Mmmm. I know how frustrasting this is to you guys. I went through it when I got my HVX. I shot something the first day and it looked like crap. Like worse than my XL1 footage and it was for a couple of reasons.. 1. I was shooting into a merky exterior location and the noise and gain and whatever else were messing it up... PLUS. I didn't have the setting optimized with the camera. The HVX needed a good deal of tweeking to look right.. and even then it was still noisy.
I hope and pray you guys figure it out. I have seen nothing but cleaner images than I got out of the HVX.... but that's not how it always is.
The one thing that I would think that is puzzeling is that it looks good through the hookup to the montior and not good through the HDMI.. I wonder what's up with that. My stuff has looked the same both out the component hook-ups and the HDMI.
I wish you fruitful tests and hope it gets up to your needs and standards. No matter what camera it is.. if you aren't happy, then you won't be able to get the most out of the camera. If you lived closer I'd say let's A/B them to see if there's a difference.
Does your stuff look that much different to what I've been posting? I've gotten pretty clean stuff most of the time..
I hope and pray you guys figure it out. I have seen nothing but cleaner images than I got out of the HVX.... but that's not how it always is.
The one thing that I would think that is puzzeling is that it looks good through the hookup to the montior and not good through the HDMI.. I wonder what's up with that. My stuff has looked the same both out the component hook-ups and the HDMI.
I wish you fruitful tests and hope it gets up to your needs and standards. No matter what camera it is.. if you aren't happy, then you won't be able to get the most out of the camera. If you lived closer I'd say let's A/B them to see if there's a difference.
Does your stuff look that much different to what I've been posting? I've gotten pretty clean stuff most of the time..
I recently got an HMC150, as an upgrade from much simpler cams like the HV20 and Sony SR12. While I'm in love with the included wide angle, and the depth of field, which is all very lovely film-like, it does seem awfully noisy to me, as well. And anything low light -- fughet about it.
It's not transcoding errors I'm seeing, as I even bought a Panasonic 850U Plasma so I could view the footage natively, straight from the SD card. (you just take the card out of the HMC150, and plunk it straight into the TV -- it couldn't be easier! it's soooo great! I highly recommend this setup for anyone that likes their 150)
I know the SR12 is probably one of the best "idiot cams" to date, since everything is so automatic (and most of the automatic settings are actually decent, for the first time in history!)... For the most part, I get better footage out of the SR12 so far (esp. quick shots where I'd have no time for manual adjustment), but I'm hoping some of the negative I'm seeing with the HMC150 are just up to operator error. It is a more complex camera. All the manual switches are GREAT (a lot easier to understand than I expected!), but there's still a TON of settings deep in the menus. Some have confusing names and functions, and the Pansonic menu interface itself is pretty ugly and awful, like an early 80s computer, which doesn't help.
Still, I have high hopes for the cam. Some people are getting spectacular results with these cams, and I think it comes from a lot of previous experience with the HVX line (and those cameras have better educational material than the HMC so far). They just take that experience, and immediately start getting great results with this cam.
I hope someone comes out with an HMC specific instructional DVD that shows how to set the cam up right, step by step, along with a few introductory setups/scenes that give long sought after "looks". Then we'll know for sure if we have a broken camera or not!
It's not transcoding errors I'm seeing, as I even bought a Panasonic 850U Plasma so I could view the footage natively, straight from the SD card. (you just take the card out of the HMC150, and plunk it straight into the TV -- it couldn't be easier! it's soooo great! I highly recommend this setup for anyone that likes their 150)
I know the SR12 is probably one of the best "idiot cams" to date, since everything is so automatic (and most of the automatic settings are actually decent, for the first time in history!)... For the most part, I get better footage out of the SR12 so far (esp. quick shots where I'd have no time for manual adjustment), but I'm hoping some of the negative I'm seeing with the HMC150 are just up to operator error. It is a more complex camera. All the manual switches are GREAT (a lot easier to understand than I expected!), but there's still a TON of settings deep in the menus. Some have confusing names and functions, and the Pansonic menu interface itself is pretty ugly and awful, like an early 80s computer, which doesn't help.
Still, I have high hopes for the cam. Some people are getting spectacular results with these cams, and I think it comes from a lot of previous experience with the HVX line (and those cameras have better educational material than the HMC so far). They just take that experience, and immediately start getting great results with this cam.
I hope someone comes out with an HMC specific instructional DVD that shows how to set the cam up right, step by step, along with a few introductory setups/scenes that give long sought after "looks". Then we'll know for sure if we have a broken camera or not!
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studio1972
Well-known member
I recently got an HMC150, as an upgrade from much simpler cams like the HV20 and Sony SR12. While I'm in love with the included wide angle, and the depth of field, which is all very lovely film-like, it does seem awfully noisy to me, as well. And anything low light -- fughet about it.
It's not transcoding errors I'm seeing, as I even bought a Panasonic 850U Plasma so I could view the footage natively, straight from the SD card. (you just take the card out of the HMC150, and plunk it straight into the TV -- it couldn't be easier! it's soooo great! I highly recommend this setup for anyone that likes their 150)
I know the SR12 is probably one of the best "idiot cams" to date, since everything is so automatic (and most of the automatic settings are actually decent, for the first time in history!)... For the most part, I get better footage out of the SR12 so far (esp. quick shots where I'd have no time for manual adjustment), but I'm hoping some of the negative I'm seeing with the HMC150 are just up to operator error. It is a more complex camera. All the manual switches are GREAT (a lot easier to understand than I expected!), but there's still a TON of settings deep in the menus. Some have confusing names and functions, and the Pansonic menu interface itself is pretty ugly and awful, like an early 80s computer, which doesn't help.
Still, I have high hopes for the cam. Some people are getting spectacular results with these cams, and I think it comes from a lot of previous experience with the HVX line (and those cameras have better educational material than the HMC so far). They just take that experience, and immediately start getting great results with this cam.
I hope someone comes out with an HMC specific instructional DVD that shows how to set the cam up right, step by step, along with a few introductory setups/scenes that give long sought after "looks". Then we'll know for sure if we have a broken camera or not!
Just wondering if you are using auto mode on the 150? If so, I would put it in manual and make sure the aperture is fully open when you are in low light. I haven't tried it in auto yet, but it seems great in manual. One trick if it is very dark is to put it in a 25p mode and have shutter = 1/25 (USA equivalent would be 30p, I have a 151E model). Obviously you can up the gain right up to 18db in some situations as well. Your consumer cams are probably doing all this stuff automatically which might explain why they seem to be better in low light.
Here's a low light example (with shutter at 1/50, gain 12db, would have been brighter with shutter at 1/25 and 18db):
http://www.vimeo.com/2062665
Regards,
Stu
MrFluffy
Well-known member
I would never in a million years believed that was shot with the same camera as mine. Although, it is significantly reduced in size whihc kill the noise effect pretty well.
Even so, mine is not as clean as that. I cant get my images that clean even with gain OFF
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Barry_Green
Moderator
If you're using "auto" mode, be aware that the camera by default can add up to 6dB of gain.
And DRS = noise. There's no free lunch, and if you put on the DRS feature you're going to get a noisier picture especially in the dark areas. DRS basically uses gain in the dark areas and a knee in the bright areas, so if DRS=on, you're probably getting gain applied throughout your image. Try DRS OFF.
DRS should be used when you need it, but not by default at all times. Just like gain.
And DRS = noise. There's no free lunch, and if you put on the DRS feature you're going to get a noisier picture especially in the dark areas. DRS basically uses gain in the dark areas and a knee in the bright areas, so if DRS=on, you're probably getting gain applied throughout your image. Try DRS OFF.
DRS should be used when you need it, but not by default at all times. Just like gain.