The Best High-Budget NLE System!!

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aboammar

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Hi eveyone :)

This is my first topic in this nice forum. I did not know where to put this subject, so please forgive me if it is in the wrong section.

Anyway, I am establishing a new production house, and I am about to buy all the required equipments. My concern is: what is the best high-budget NLE system to buy? My budget for the post-production system is upto $70,000.

I want the system to be:
1- Extramly stable and flexable.
2- Windows based
3- Real REAL-TIME HD & SD performance (Not Real-Time preview like most software-based NLE)
4- And sure, it must be full-featured NLE.

Along with long list of equipments, I will buy the folowing camcorders:
- Six Sony XDCAM EX3 for TV programs production.
- One Sony F900R for high quality tv commercials, documntries, etc.

I have had a very good experince in the last 13 years with DPS Perception RT, dpsVelocity, and now VelocityQ 3D Delux NLE System (now owned by Harris). But, since VelocityQ is an SD only system, and since I am moving to an HD production, my first logical choice was to go with same company, with VelocityHD 3D Delux NLE system.
http://www.broadcast.harris.com/product_portfolio/product_details.asp?sku=VelocityHD

However, I am very open, and can go with other brand, such as Avid Media Composer systems, if those systems will deliver better HD performance. So, Any idea?

I apprecaite any feedback ...

Kind regrds,
aboammar
 
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I mean, you could spend hella moola on a Fire* or new Quantel badboy but you'd be far better off getting FCP and trying to outgrow it.
There is not more bang for the buck in the NLE world as you can get into for as little as a grand or bang out the sweetest of uncompressed suites with it.
If just wanting to spend money, there are several avenues to take. The need is only depicted by demand and I don't see that.
All this said, you should scope out DS's new price point. They've almost got it affordable for what it does. Not near as powerful as the above mentioned NLEs but mucho bettero than a Media Composer. While MC use to be a selling point, it's something I have to downplay now.
 
Could you explain why your system needs to be windows based? FCP is very flexible and cuts EX1 footage smoothly. Also maybe get 3 EX1 and 2 EX3 cams? I would say skip the F900 for now since your company is new. Why jump on the aging tape based workflow? Check out the HPX3000. It is card based P2 workflow and doesn't need expensive decks and the image is amazing. Check this review http://www.dv.com/reviews/reviews_item.php?articleId=196604009
 
Uh, Nik, I believe that the original poster was looking for the "best NLE edit system." FCP is definitely not it.
 
Hi everyone and thank you very much for your feedback and advices .. I realy appreciate it so much.

Point 1: Sure, I do not want to spend $70K for NLE system if there are no benefit to me, however, I am willing to spend that much of money if I have to.

Point 2: The NLE system must be a Windows based becouse I am expert in Windows, and my editors also expert in Windows as well, and there are no point to learn a new OS. Learning a new NLE system is OK for us, but not a new OS.

Point 3: What is DS? Is it a real-time NLE system? How dose it compare with VelocityHD System?

Point 4: My editores have been using real-rime hardware-based NLE system for over 12 years now, and it would be too hard to go back to software-based system such as FCP, Vegas, etc which offer realtime preivew as per my understanding.

Point 5: Full turnkey VelocityHD system will cost me about $42K which is fine to me, and if Avid's systems are much more expensive, and dose not offer better realtime performance, then maybe I better stay with VelocityHD.

Since I am not expert with Avid systems, I would apprecaite telling me more how dose the Avid Symphony Nitris DX or the Avid DS compare with VeloctyHD system, and how much they cost?

Finally, Nik, thanks for your advices, but I like Sony brand more than anything else, besides that, Sony service in Yemen is far far better than any other brands..

I learned that th Sony F900 HDCAM offers the best image quality than any other camera in it calss and price range, even better than the disk based XDCAM HD models. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I appreciate more feedbacks ..

Thanks for everyone ..
 
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Jim2000 said:
Uh, Nik, I believe that the original poster was looking for the "best NLE edit system." FCP is definitely not it.
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That is your opinion.

But, being that he IS asking for a windows-based system, I too would recommend an AVID Nitris.


You can get them really cheap right now as a lot of people are dumping them.

See here.

DS is a realtime HD compositing/edit system. MUCH better than the Velocity, which while good, is made by a company with not much support.
 
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aboammar said:
Hi everyone and thank you very much for your feedback and advices .. I realy appreciate it so much.

Point 1: Sure, I do not want to spend $70K for NLE system if there are no benefit to me, however, I am willing to spend that much of money if I have to.
Click to expand...

See my post below for links to plenty of DS systems for a LOT less than that.

aboammar said:
Point 2: The NLE system must be a Windows based becouse I am expert in Windows, and my editors also expert in Windows as well, and there are no point to learn a new OS. Learning a new NLE system is OK for us, but not a new OS.
Click to expand...

That's fine.

aboammar said:
Point 3: What is DS? Is it a real-time NLE system? How dose it compare with VelocityHD System?
Click to expand...

Answered below. http://www.avid.com/products/DS-Nitris/index.asp


aboammar said:
Point 4: My editores have been using real-rime hardware-based NLE system for over 12 years now, and it would be too hard to go back to software-based system such as FCP, Vegas, etc which offer realtime preivew as per my understanding.
Click to expand...

FCPro with Kona hardware is fully realtime.

aboammar said:
Point 5: Full turnkey VelocityHD system will cost me about $42K which is fine to me, and if Avid's systems are much more expensive, and dose not offer better realtime performance, then maybe I better stay with VelocityHD.
Click to expand...

I would stay away from Velocity as their support leaves a lot to be desired.

Since I am not expert with Avid systems, I would apprecaite telling me more how dose the Avid Symphony Nitris DX or the Avid DS compare with VeloctyHD system, and how much they cost?

Finally, Nik, thanks for your advices, but I like Sony brand more than anything else, besides that, Sony service in Yemen is far far better than any other brands..

I learned that th Sony F900 HDCAM offers the best image quality than any other camera in it calss and price range, even better than the disk based XDCAM HD models. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I appreciate more feedbacks ..

Thanks for everyone ..[/QUOTE]
 
aboammar said:
What is DS? Is it a real-time NLE system? How dose it compare with VelocityHD System?
Click to expand...
I don't know Velocity HD so I can't compare the two systems. I can say that DS is a very powerful editor/compositor. It's Avid's top of the line finishing system. Node based compositing, surround audio, 4:4:4 HD and lot's of other features that you expect in a high end system.

aboammar said:
My editores have been using real-rime hardware-based NLE system for over 12 years now, and it would be too hard to go back to software-based system such as FCP, Vegas, etc which offer realtime preivew as per my understanding.
Click to expand...
Yes, your editors would be spending quite a bit of time in the break room waiting for FCP to finish rendering.

aboammar said:
Full turnkey VelocityHD system will cost me about $42K which is fine to me, and if Avid's systems are much more expensive, and dose not offer better realtime performance, then maybe I better stay with VelocityHD.
Click to expand...
Avid DS is around $65k turnkey. Again, I can't say if the DS offers better RT performance than Velocity HD.

Other considerations:
- DS ships with a full version of Media Composer.
- The current version of DS does not support direct ingest of XDCAM HD material. The current work flow calls for importing into MC and transcoding.
- Support contracts from Avid are expensive and necessary.
- Depending on how many edit suites your facility runs you might have a look at Avid Unity to share projects & media (this will exceed your budget).

aboammar said:
I learned that th Sony F900 HDCAM offers the best image quality than any other camera in it calss and price range, even better than the disk based XDCAM HD models. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Click to expand...
I would wager that the imager in the 900 and the 700 (XDCAM) is the same. The only difference is that the XDCAM material is compressed a little more than the HDCAM footage because of the different recording formats.
 
Wow, I'm shocked you can by a used Avid DS for $20k... I had no idea they are now that cheap.

You should pick up one of these used Avid DS's for around $20k and use the money you save for other studio gear or camera's, or even buy two of them.

I have two Avid Media Composer suites and love em. Wish I had the DS.
 
You can dang near get into a new one for mid 40s now. I paid more than that for my last MC.
If needing to go Avid, it's the way to go, assuming you need effects.
I spent over 70k on my first real NLE (symphony). Paid it off in one year then made bank on it the next. The payment was stressful and today, unless you really need a Fire or Q, man there is just no reason to get in debt.
It sounds to me like you are starting out and building needs. If so, you'll be doing yourself a huge favor by getting FCP and growing with it.
Avid's ony high end product today is DS and nobody knows how much longer Avid will be around to support it.
I'd stand clear of all Avid products at this point.
 
If you're used to a hardware based system, and the realtime it provides, you absolutely will not get that with FCP. Even Apple suggests you do a render before you drop to tape, even if everything is playing in realtime. Can FCP even play a lower third with alpha in realtime? Last time I used it it couldn't, or if it managed to you definitely needed to render before you went to tape.

FCP is a perfectly capable editing system, and the suite of tools is nice, but if you're used to hardware based performance it cannot match. Avid's Media Composer offers much, much more realtime performance, particularly if throw the Nitris DX on it. The Avid DS is a hell of a system (I've never used one but had a chance to watch someone with it). Is there a dealer in your area where you can demo it? You'll definitely have a learning curve, but it's crazy powerful. As far as Avid supporting it--they just released a new version, and they aren't exactly bankrupt. We have Media Composer and I have no qualms about future support.
 
grinner said:
Avid's ony high end product today is DS and nobody knows how much longer Avid will be around to support it.
I'd stand clear of all Avid products at this point.
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Are you suggesting that Avid may be going out of business in the not-too-distant future?
 
I'd take what Griner has to say with a grain of salt. He has a giant chip on his shoulder regarding Avid. Why? I don't know. Perhaps he resents the stress of making payments to Avid for all those years. Sorta like buying too much car and being mad at the Auto maker. "It's Chevy's fault I'm in debt because I bought a Corvette!" Gimmie a break. Grin's whining on this board about Avid is like a broken record. It's time to stop dwelling on past mistakes and move on.
 
Thank you very much everyone for the feedback, espically Butcher, Jim2000, mcgeedigital, milksac, and grinner. I apreciate it so much ...:dankk2:

mcgeedigital .. thanks alot for your advice to stay away from VelocityHD.. and thanks for the links, but, why people are dumping Avid's systems if you are recomending them?!!

milksac .. thanks for your advice. If I understood correctly: DS is the hardware part, and MC is the software part, am I right? Also, since DS does not support direct ingest of XDCAM HD material, is it time consumig to transcode the XDCAM HD materials?

Why support contracts from Avid are expensive and necessary?? Is Avid DS system unstable and require alot of maintainance?!!

Finally, since the XDCAM material is compressed more than the HDCAM, is the image quality diffrence noticeable?

Thanks again evryone for the advices and feedback ...

Best regards,
 
milksac said:
I'd take what Griner has to say with a grain of salt. He has a giant chip on his shoulder regarding Avid. Why? I don't know. Perhaps he resents the stress of making payments to Avid for all those years. Sorta like buying too much car and being mad at the Auto maker. "It's Chevy's fault I'm in debt because I bought a Corvette!" Gimmie a break. Grin's whining on this board about Avid is like a broken record. It's time to stop dwelling on past mistakes and move on.
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Amen. :thumbup:
 
mcgeedigital said:
DS is a realtime HD compositing/edit system. MUCH better than the Velocity, which while good, is made by a company with not much support.
Click to expand...

I am confiused :huh:
I looked into the details of the DS system, and there are no details about how many streams of HD and SD playback, and how many lyers of 2D, 3D graphics can be play-back in real time!!

For example: VelocityHD indicates the folowing RT performance in thier websit:

- Full-quality, HD playback of two video streams (compressed and uncompressed), two dynamic graphics streams, real-time 3D DVE, and true, dual-stream, real-time, HD transitions and effects.

- Real-Time HD/SD Color Correction

- Full quality, real-time playback of eight SD video (compressed and uncompressed) streams, and eight graphics streams. Ten of these video and graphics streams can be layered and mixed in any combination, can be transitioned, layered and composited in real time, with remaining graphics streams available as wipe borders and DVE masks.

- Full-quality interactive feedback on the HD monitor while setting up transitions and effects — letting you see the results instantly in full quality for unparalleled precision and freedom to experiment.

- The optional A3DX™ 3D DVE daughtercard adds one channel of real-time, high-definition 3D DVE and four channels of real-time, standard-definition 3D effects — including perspectives, warps and rotation — plus real-time masks, secondary color correction, chroma/luma keying, blurs and more. This effects processing happens right on the Altitude™ hardware and is not limited by the host system’s CPU or graphics card performance.

- 3D effects such as rotation, perspective and warp can be applied to graphics as well as video. All of these effects, plus variable speed changes, reverse, color correction, pixel effects, transparency and more can be combined simultaneously in true real time with transitions and rolling and crawling titles, providing maximum creative flexibility.

- All real-time effects processing happens right on the Altitude™ hardware, providing guaranteed performance regardless of effects combinations.

- Real Time HD/SD Title rolls and crawls.

For more futures details, check this link:
http://www.broadcast.harris.com/product_portfolio/product_details.asp?sku=VelocityHD

Now, where can I find such information abut Avid's Media Composer Nitris DX , Symphony Nitris DX , and DS?

Thanks everyone for your help ....

Kind regads
 
aboammar said:
Why support contracts from Avid are expensive and necessary??
Click to expand...

I have no idea how big the film and video market in Yemen is, but it is good to always have access to someone who can help you with any technical issues. Having worked on several NLE's over the course of my career, I'd have to say that Avid isn't any more unstable than any other NLE. However, sometimes things go wrong, and sometimes you need tech support.

If you are a big operation, you might have a tech support person on your staff, and in that case, you wouldn't need an Avid support contract. If, however, you are a small operation and there aren't Avid knowledgeable people in your area, I would recommend an Avid support contract for the first year.

p.s. Despite what some on this board may say, Avid is not going out of business any time soon. Almost all Hollywood films and television shows are still edited on the Avid.
 
DC said:
Are you suggesting that Avid may be going out of business in the not-too-distant future?
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While an optimist by nature, I don't see any govt bail outs for Avid.
I don't really think they will fold and go away. They would have already done it.
I expect more mergers, sells and scale backs. Their product line has gone backwards for 4 years now. They have no developmental team now. Their management is now their sales force... hence the false marketing.
It'd be hard to invest in em further.

I'm not just bashing the big A. This dude asked a simple question. I am simply offering whaty I know about the subject. Havnig been a video editor for the last 20 years, I have watched the evolution of this all. Having been a post-production facility owner, I full understand the needs and the risks of the business.
Debt bad. profit good.
Set yourself up this way and you'll be ok as long as you have passion for your art.

p.s. You'll find Assurence quite worthless. It's expensive and simply frustrating when you call and they respond with 'hhmm, well that otta work."
 
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