Hmc150 vs ex1

Evro said:
If cost of camera/media/ergonomics is not important to you and you are strictly making full length narratives then none of these prosumer cameras are going to be good enough for you, especially if your film is for theatre distribution.
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I agree too, that's why I included "at a minimum." in my post.

I work in a downtown area with all the shiny high-rise buildings and stuff. This makes me lucky enough to see commercials, spots and whatever else professionally shot on the sidewalks every now and then. I am constantly amazed at what they bring in to shoot a 30 second spot. Basically a huge 10-wheeler box truck, support vehicles, tow behind generator, etc.

In every case, they were shooting with a Panasonic camera. I couldn't identify exactly which one, but they appeared to be one of the HPXs, maybe even a HPX 500 once.

I do have to say, with the massive light manipulation they do through 4'X4' shade filters to block direct sun over the talent, and multiple $14K+ Arri lights for fill light set up, you could easily get a good shot on the HMC-150. And there is a group of people watching on a remote monitor to see if they approve of the shot.

Bottom line, this stuff is expensive.
 
I agree with you Jeff, on a few occasions when we're doing bridal location shoots in the Sydney CBD we see whole production crews shooting commercials with huge ass Sony or Panasonic broadcast style cameras all decked out with matte boxes, cinema lenses and cranes, dolly tracks and an entourage of very bright lights. The only time I've seen HVX & EX1 cameras used by big TV studios is during live to air street interviews and trashy reality TV shows.
 
I know the EX1 is significantly more expensive, so I would expect it to have a better picture. I've been hoping (so I could save money) the response would be "Oh ya, you get just as good a pic on a HMC, you just have to [buy a Letus] or [insert wisdom here]. Here's a link to an example video that illustrates how good you can make it look".

Evro, I would humbly disagree that an EX1 isn't good enough for a feature. Here are a few EX1 narrative videos that have plenty good enough image quality for an independent feature in my opinion.

The Entity
http://www.vimeo.com/1198204
(No 35mm used, naked EX1)

Cold Feet
http://www.vimeo.com/1861333
(EX1 w/Letus w/primes used)

I haven't seen any HMC footage as good as those. The closest I've seen is this cam test:

http://www.vimeo.com/2067495
(Uses a Letus)

BTW Justyn, that dance clip isn't bad :)

I plan on renting lighting and sound equipment, but I'd like to own the camera since renting is so expensive. And if I really had to, I'd rent a Red, but since the EX1 clips I mention above seem good enough, I'm not sure I really need to.

Thanks for all the feedback so far! You guys are very helpful and this is a great forum!
 
It's highly compressed for sure... I think the argument for a RED is really also only valid in terms of people who are doing a feature and for a blow up. The RED looks just like EX1 footie when it's downconverted to 1080... that's why a buddy of mine didn't buy one. He was going to deliver 1080 footage and there's little to no difference on that smaller scale. The difference is noticable on a big screen... and I think that all of the heartache of the workflow might be worth it on a feature when y ou don't shoot a ton of footage. The Red would be a nightmare for anything that you'd be shooting tons of footage on.


Also to go back on the old tired tread.. it's true that a story and performances are what counts. If it's good then distributors will go for it. Clerks is one of the ugliest looking films ever but people laughed. The Celebration, which I love, was shot on a 900 dollar single chip SD cams. I think that too many times filmmakers hide behind their camera and have pissing matches over what is pixel shifted and whatever. Who gives a crap about that... just make your film with the tools that you have and concentrate on the hard part selling it. Everyone can make a film, but can you sell it.

On my next feature, I'm going to have a publicist, an attorney, and a producer's rep all pumping up the hype and selling the sizzle way before we even start shooting. That's the key.. getting the buzz out there and selling ya baby. No one cares what something is shot on.. and are willing to forgive imperfections if it's a good compelling story
 
*The Entitiy*

Dang the EX1 does look very good without a 35mm adapter.

I hope someone can make a side by side footage comparison between the EX1 and HMC150, just to see how big the difference of quality between both cams.

Cheers,
John
 
Ha ha! John, that would be sheer torture for owners of the HMC ;-)

To put things back in context, I suggested renting a Red One etc... because the poster wasn't concerned about cost, media or ergonomics, now I don't doubt you can make a great narrative feature with an EX1, especially going out uncompressed via SDI, heck you could make a great feature using a Canon XH-A1, and no doubt you could also make one with an HMC & a 35mm adaptor. However in my opinion I don't think the HMC has the front end that could emulate the look of 35mm film or a 4K video camera (downscaled of course). What I find the most disappointing with the HMC is the yucky video looking way it handles strong highlights by adding that horrendous purple fringing on edges.

I'm still discovering what the HMC can do and certainly not under any illusion that this little $3200 camcorder is some kind of miracle machine. If Canon made a tapeless SDHC card version of the XH-A1 I would have probably gone for that - you can't beat Canon glass :)
 
Brady said:
There's this link, but it's comparing 1080i60 which isn't exactly the HMC150's strong point...

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=150828

(btw, these are just stills)
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Thanks, I've seen this one but its hard to judge screen shots when its interlaced, it just looks awful. I hope the guy would post the footage :)


Evro said:
Ha ha! John, that would be sheer torture for owners of the HMC ;-)

To put things back in context, I suggested renting a Red One etc... because the poster wasn't concerned about cost, media or ergonomics, now I don't doubt you can make a great narrative feature with an EX1, especially going out uncompressed via SDI, heck you could make a great feature using a Canon XH-A1, and no doubt you could also make one with an HMC & a 35mm adaptor. However in my opinion I don't think the HMC has the front end that could emulate the look of 35mm film or a 4K video camera (downscaled of course). What I find the most disappointing with the HMC is the yucky video looking way it handles strong highlights by adding that horrendous purple fringing on edges.

I'm still discovering what the HMC can do and certainly not under any illusion that this little $3200 camcorder is some kind of miracle machine. If Canon made a tapeless SDHC card version of the XH-A1 I would have probably gone for that - you can't beat Canon glass :)
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Well Im sure eevryone would like to see a convincing differences between the 2 cameras (HMC150/EX1), we all know EX1 is the better one but how much better? I'd like to know as well.

Im still not convince with the footage I see of HMC150 on Vimeo. I've seen good ones with CC like http://www.vimeo.com/2384547 I still do think the HMC150 can do a lot better with the Dynamic Range Settings, better colour adjustments so why not.

I do like Canon cameras, I mean the little Canon HV30 is a wonderful cam that offers great flexibility in post for CC, IMHO. But Im not looking for tape based cams anymore.
 
I still do think the HMC150 can do a lot better with the Dynamic Range Settings, better colour adjustments so why not.
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I hope so too! I bought two HMCs but I'm not quite ready to let go of my XH-A1 just yet ;-)
 
So the camera head is EXACTLY the same on the HMC and 170?

What are the differences in the DSP then?

Does the 170 capture at a higher bitdepth before downconverting to 8bit or what
 
DanHD said:
So the camera head is EXACTLY the same on the HMC and 170?

What are the differences in the DSP then?

Does the 170 capture at a higher bitdepth before downconverting to 8bit or what
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Both cameras (HMC-150 and HPX-170) have the same CCDs and lens. They also capture at 14 bits and process at 19 bits; this is recorded at 8 bits.

The HPX-170 records to P2 using DVCPRO-HD and the HMC-150 records to SDHC using AVCHD. The difference is the CODEC used in the recording. The 170 has the higher bit rate and would be easier to edit.

The 170 has extra features like, overcranking, undercranking, time lapse, ...


Bob Diaz
 
Evro said:
Yes that's right, it's called the KxS solution, however it is not endorsed by Sony and it is limited to shooting at the standard frame rates (no overcranking) because of the limited bandwidth the KxS solution offers.
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Actually,
that's not totally correct. Overcranking the EX1 at 60FPS (24P) needs around 12.5MB/s. The SanDisk Ultra II SDHC cards sustains 15MB/s.

The problem is that Sony intentionally limited the USB datarate over their expresscard interface. It's max is around 8.5MB/s. Their own PHU60K expresscard to USB 64GB video capture drive does not work for overcrank. For that matter, it barely works capturing HQ mode. It occasonally throws media restore errors.
The KxS works FAR better. I've been using four of these card for over three months with NO errors.

Also, the EX1 can run all of the HQ modes with the KxS (Expresscard to SDHC adaptor).

True, it can not overcrank at full 60FPS, but it can overcrank to 40FPS without any issues.
Also, it's no big deal. When you need to overcrank, just throw in your SxS card.
The camera has two card slots.

The KxS with the 16GB Ultra II SDHC cost around $115.
SanDisk is about to release their 32GB Ultra II which will sell for $150.
So for less than $200, you can shoot 100 minutes of HQ mode 1920x1080P.
That seems like a decent savings since their 32GB SxS cost around $1500.
 
As much as I think the EX1 is a superior camera with higher resolution & superior optics, for my line of work I can't see myself flying one on a hand-held Glidecam all day like I can with one of my HMCs ;-)
 
Justyn, I'd also vote to see a higher data rate version of that video, even if it was shorter. That would be a good sample of what I could expect from the HMC. And it would let me see the difference between the highly compressed stuff I've seen and the "best" quality you could get out of it. :)
 
I do actually prefer the color rendition and gamma settings on the HMC to the EX1.

I find I can get a more filmic image.

But hey, dont want to start a fire here.
 
DanHD said:
I do actually prefer the color rendition and gamma settings on the HMC to the EX1.

I find I can get a more filmic image.

But hey, dont want to start a fire here.
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Everyone knows that Panasonic has the reputation for great filmic looking gamma & superb colours, otherwise people would not be making "PANALOOK" or "DVXMATCH" presets in Canon, JVC & Sony cameras :D I've never heard of a "CANONLOOK" or "SONYMATCH" preset for the Panasonic ;-)
 
I'm getting a Cinevate HD achromat for my 35mm lens adapter so soon I will be posting some HMC footage shot with Nikon AI-S primes (24mm f2.0, 50mm f1.4, 85mm f1.8, 135mm f2.8).
 
I'd like to see that adapter work. I think this camera might be fast enough to do what I've been wanting to do.


i'll post a higher res version... or if you are in orlando, you can come and see it play next Sunday. cheers
 
Evro said:
What I find the most disappointing with the HMC is the yucky video looking way it handles strong highlights by adding that horrendous purple fringing on edges.
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Totally agreed. It dosen't do it often, but when it puple fringes, it really purple fringes.

Evro said:
I'm still discovering what the HMC can do and certainly not under any illusion that this little $3200 camcorder is some kind of miracle machine. If Canon made a tapeless SDHC card version of the XH-A1 I would have probably gone for that - you can't beat Canon glass :)
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I agree here too. But the A1 "s" is out, and tapeless in not in the cards. By the time there is another A1 release, the HMC-150 & siblings will probably have another release too (hopefully native 1920X1080).


I still do think the HMC150 can do a lot better with the Dynamic Range Settings, better colour adjustments so why not.
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Lately I have been making DRS or Knee adjustments (either low or auto) and master pedestal before my outside bright light shots when time permits. It really seems to be able to preserve more detail for some reason when you do this. I also hate blown highlights. However, it's a PITA to do this.

Does anyone else make adjustments to DRS/knee or master pedestal during shoots?
 
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