Has P2 been completely murdered by KxS?

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Steve Shovlar

Steve Shovlar

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A couple of years ago I purchased an HVX200 and with it two 4Gb cards, to give a total recording time of 15 minutes on 720PN. The recording time was so short, I purchased a 60Gb P2 drive to offload to. Really was impractical. I then purchased a couple of 8Gb cards, which cost me a small fortune. And a waste of money. I ended up shooting SD to tape with it 90% of the time.

Two years later and P2 cards have crept up in size to a bigger 32Gb. But they cost the best part of $1500 a card. There are no other makers of P2 other than Panasonic and so P2 users are stuffed. Either buy P2 at the huge prices or a firestore and make your setup difficult for hand held.

So along comes SxS. Its a better shape as it fits straight into a laptops express card slot, so no need for adaptors like the P2 needs. Record times are much better. 16Gb card lasts nearly one hour. Two 32Gb cards give nearly 4 hours of filming without having to swap out cards, due to the lower bit rates.

Now of course with KxS, (or whatever it will be called next week!) SxS cards are suddenly on the back burner due to EX1 and EX3 users able to use SDHC and adaptors, meaning I can shoot an hour for $100 or less. SxS will of course still be needed for important work and slo-mo. Compare that to P2. An hour on two 32Gb cards will cost $3000. THIRTY times more.

So why today would anyone buy a P2 camera? Would they need their head examined, or am I missing something? Surely in a roundabout way KxS is the death nell for P2.
 
Fuji and Maxell make P2 cards.

You would continue to use P2 if you happen to like what a P2 camera does for you -- if you like the Panasonic look (which is why we all use Panasonic cameras), if you like the logisitical advantages P2 gives you over Sony memory card cameras (metadata, etc.), if you prefer to shoot intraframe over interframe long-GOP. Keep in mind, SxS cards do not cost less than P2 cards as a function of how much memory they have; they are able to record more because the Sony codec is much, much more compressed than the DVCPRO HD of the P2 cameras. Sure, you get a longer record time, but it's at a cost -- what's more important to you? For many, using DVCPRO HD is worth it.

In any case, Sony has been sounding the "death knell" for P2 for quite some time, yet it only gets stronger.
 
Well as of now, I would not see many reasons to choose the Panasonic P2 Cameras over the Sony EX. I mainly see inconvenients.

- Bad LCD
- Smaller sensors
- Pixel shifting
- Heavy data rates
- Expansive cards and no K&S like solution.

It's just the rolling shutter on the EX brand that is sometimes an annoyance. (filmed a Christmas party this weekend and the there were lots of flashes)...
 
This is old ground, tread and re-tread.

Really, as the HVX owners have been so keen to point out, their camera is better than the EX1 for certain kinds of filming. At least the kind of filming they PREFER to do, so it wouldn't matter if the EX1 media was free.

If the media costs were really a deciding factor, then one could go with the HMC150, but of course you'd lose the variable frame rates and some neat features like the waveform monitor.

Honestly, if I was jumping in this game now and REALLY wanted a Panasonic, I'd get one with SDI out and shoot to the new Convergent box and bypass P2 altogether. Better codec, better bitrate, more color info, cheaper media.
 
Steve Shovlar said:
So why today would anyone buy a P2 camera? Would they need their head examined, or am I missing something? Surely in a roundabout way KxS is the death nell for P2.
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Very Interesting.

There is always going to be debates on which camera is better than the other. As far as workflow and its price point, the KxS gives a BIG PLUS favoring acquisition systems that uses ExpressCard media.

All the companies and T.V. stations have invested money and time on the P2 workflow, will they be willing to move on to todays ridiculously fast pace technology. There's got to be a new P2 media that is faster & cheaper, backwards compatibility brewing somewhere.

Todays economic problems might be a big factor too.
 
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When I started this thread I was not comparing the cameras. True, many like the Panasonic "look" straight out of the box. But that has little to do with P2. I am talking the capturing media and not the cameras.

With KxS so much cheaper per minute for minute recording time, it's a serious consideration.
 
Steve Shovlar said:
When I started this thread I was not comparing the cameras. True, many like the Panasonic "look" straight out of the box. But that has little to do with P2. I am talking the capturing media and not the cameras.

With KxS so much cheaper per minute for minute recording time, it's a serious consideration.
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But of course, the media are not being filled with similar images, so it's hard (some say) to make a direct comparison. In any event, in a venue such as this, you're not going to get an objective view anyway, so these threads typically devolve into a "my camera is better than your camera" diatribe this gets old very quickly.
 
Agree. P2 over any Sony product with it's Long-GOP problem in post.... the money you save with Sony will be spent in the edit waiting to for Long-Gop to work. Oh and the look from Sony is cold and needs a jungle book to correct every white balance.
 
This is a silly thead exactly because we've heard this so many times, and the answer is the same. Glad to see you've taken this attitude too Perrone.

P2 records HD Dvc Pro, the SxS records Xdcam hdv. They do different things and the cards are not interchangeable or can work with either P2 Cams or Sxs cams so the comparison is irrelevant.

That is unless both cams were the EXACT same and performed as such. They are NOT, and people prefer qualities from each. Some will insist on intraframe, others see that as a worthy sacrifice for the other qualities the EX delivers.

In families kids often argue whether a star or angel is placed on the xmas tree.

As a final note, can we please stop the 'out the box' mantra, it's become a kind of trendy bs that suggests fans of the panny look are just awed by a preset lol.

Every camera has unique qualities that cannot be replicated, and guess what people often buy them for those preferred qualities. The EX has them too... must we try and patronise each others choice of camera? ;)

Steve i just wonder... why the heck did you even post this thread? This is peeing in the pool as it were... and rudypictures, bless ya and your entitled to your opinion but saying that here will offend Ex users who simply disbelieve this.

Can't we just praise the EX for its res and great capacity, and the hvx for its organic and intraframe qualities - and so on and so forth. ;)
 
My only concern is the support of ExpressCard vs PCMIA among laptop manufacturers. And what does that do for PCMIA card manufacturing? How long will that adapter market last? SDHC capacties go up as prices go down, even SSDs in laptops will easily double in capacity in a year and drop in price. So is the lack of PCMIA demand keeping P2 cards expensive? Is the P2 manufacturing process that expensive? P2 is great, but how long will PCMIA last and will P2 be among the last PCMIA products in production?
 
Hazard said:
My only concern is the support of ExpressCard vs PCMIA among laptop manufacturers. And what does that do for PCMIA card manufacturing? How long will that adapter market last? SDHC capacties go up as prices go down, even SSDs in laptops will easily double in capacity in a year and drop in price. So is the lack of PCMIA demand keeping P2 cards expensive? Is the P2 manufacturing process that expensive? P2 is great, but how long will PCMIA last and will P2 be among the last PCMIA products in production?
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[SIZE=-1]PCMCIA Announces Release 2.0 of ExpressCard® Standard - Nov. 16th, 2008. [/SIZE]

http://www.expresscard.org/web/site/press.jsp

I don't know if they are going to stop production on PCMCIA cards. There are card adapters available. Don't forget about USB 3.0, 10x faster than USB 2.0.
Computer Technology is quick. I love building computers, but geez every 6 months your new computer is not the newest thing out there anymore!
 
Steve Shovlar said:
When I started this thread I was not comparing the cameras. True, many like the Panasonic "look" straight out of the box. But that has little to do with P2. I am talking the capturing media and not the cameras.

With KxS so much cheaper per minute for minute recording time, it's a serious consideration.
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The cameras have everything to do with it. P2, SxS, KxS -- they're all simply memory cards. They can store any data. It's what you put ON them that matters, and that's the camera.
 
I was dissapointed to learn the Fuji, Maxell & Panny cards are all made at the same plant with different stickers put on them.

What kind of competition is that?
 
Ohh yea, did you guys see the post where a guy who bought the 64 gig card with 800mbps speed and did a speed test against a 16 gig 600mbps card?

The "slower" 16 gig card off loaded faster.

EDIT: I am refering to the P2 cards.
 
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Steve Shovlar said:
So why today would anyone buy a P2 camera? Would they need their head examined, or am I missing something? Surely in a roundabout way KxS is the death nell for P2.
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Yes there is more. There are many levels at why people are investing time and money into different systems. Everybody from your mom&pop wedding video/Christmas party, all the way to the high end users with a lot more to loose, look at different aspects of the systems availible.

I am buying 2 Varicam 2700 and 2 Varicam 3700 cameras for my shop because as of today I cannot buy another camera that gives me the specs I am looking for in a solid state camera available in the market today.

I have been a sony guy since my first camera (sony 400A) back in 1994. If sony comes up with a solid state recorder camera that can give me the quality better then a D5, cost less, survive in a flame suite and work faster.....out goes the panny cameras.

To make bold statements saying one is better then other because of XYZ is not relevant because it does not apply to the guy next door. My friend who owns a very similar shop in LA wouldnt even touch my 2700's with a ten foot pole (he calls them toys for tots) because he works exclusively with Genesis cameras. To each his own.

So no, we dont need our heads examined. As long as the customer gets what they want, they dont care if you shoot it on a polaroid camera. As long as the gear makes me money and pays my bills I dont care either.
 
lawriejaffa said:
Steve i just wonder... why the heck did you even post this thread? This is peeing in the pool as it were... and rudypictures, bless ya and your entitled to your opinion but saying that here will offend Ex users who simply disbelieve this.
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I wasn't aiming for a flame war or trying to P on Panasonic. That was not my intension at all. I was trying to make a statement about the prices of P2 compared to KxS, and the way KxS will murder P2 because of that simple fact.

Lets not bring Panasonic "mojo" or the Sony "video" look into it. Lets keep it simple. Yes, the cards are not interchangeable, we all know that.

OK here's a scenario and one that is quite familiar. A post which says, " I am stuck and need some advice. I am not sure whether to buy a HVX200A, or the EX1. I love the Panny look, but I film in dark places."

Then we get fans from both camps talking about iFrames and long GOP etc.

Buut when it comes down to it, and the prospective purchaser looks at the price of P2 and KxS, all those iFrames and Long GOP, rolling shutter and CMOS issues mean little. Because KxS is $100 for an hours shooting, and P2 is $3000. And the buyer will accept the rolling shutter/long GOP and keep the $3000 in his pocket in these days of recession.

That's what I was getting at.
 
Someone who looks at price alone will conclude that, sure. But you asked why anyone would continue with P2, and we're telling you why. Looking at price alone is a not a good way to make a choice.
 
David Jimerson said:
Someone who looks at price alone will conclude that, sure. But you asked why anyone would continue with P2, and we're telling you why. Looking at price alone is a not a good way to make a choice.
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OK I do understand. I should have been more succinct with my first post when I was going at it in a round about way.

If people were asking between the Sony and Panny and there was no KxS solution then all the other reasons come into play. But with a massive difference betwen KxS and P2 ( and I am not talking newsroom/hgher end users) the price of KxS will sway the majority of ditherers over to the EX1/EX3.

Not that its doing Sony much good as they announced today they are laying off 8000 staff around the world.
 
Steve Shovlar said:
Buut when it comes down to it, and the prospective purchaser looks at the price of P2 and KxS, all those iFrames and Long GOP, rolling shutter and CMOS issues mean little. Because KxS is $100 for an hours shooting, and P2 is $3000. And the buyer will accept the rolling shutter/long GOP and keep the $3000 in his pocket in these days of recession.

That's what I was getting at.
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You know, I used to wonder the same thing when I was racking my brain over this same thing early in 2008. And then someone here really boiled it down for me. In narrative work, you're only shooting 10-15 minutes worth of footage before moving on to another setup. And given that, there is PLENTY of time to dump footage, check playback, etc. So having HOURS of uninterrupted shooting (in narrative work) just isn't so important.

If you're shooting long form, this might become more an issue, but from what I can tell, most people on this site are not event shooters. They are narrative filmmakers with the occasional documentary filmmaker. And a lot of this argument simply doesn't fly. I also think it's why the smaller resolution of the HVX doesn't matter so much, and why the "organic" looks of the DVX/HVX are so important.

For *MY* needs the EX1 was a no brainer. I HAD to be able to shoot 3.5 - 4 hours uninterrupted. Given that, P2 was simply not an option at my price point. Frankly, neither was the Sony with SxS, but since I could use my current firestore with the Sony, it became the overriding factor. Not the CMOS, not the rolling shutter, but simply the media. If all my work was narrative, I might have chosen differently. Maybe.

I still like my DVX, and shoot it. But the EX1 generally is how I'll be earning my keep at my office.
 
I shoot P2 because i have too. I shoot it because thats what Panasonic choose to be the recording media of a camera i love and trust. I know i can throw my HVX into almost any situation (except low light) and not have any problems getting good pictures that my clients like.

But at the same time i've just bought an Ex1 because i have clients who want longer record times and better low light capabilities.

I guess im kinda lucky that i have enough work to own the best of both worlds.
 
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