Letus Extreme or Ultimate???

Tim Naylor said:
As far as the Blade is concerned, let's not hear about it unless you've used both extensively enough to have a competent opinion and comparison. Most of the comparisons on this site have been worthless spec sheet ranting. Lot of these adaptors look good on paper but until it's been field tested (and not one day on a focus chart) opinions mean little.
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Everything Tim said I'm behind. Tim actually tests a lot more than I do and he's much more accurate and a stickler for field usage practicality. He's definitely right, the difference on paper may read "15 percent better than the competition" but that fifteen percent difference means a WORLD of difference on a screen. Especially projection.

I also totally agree that it's worth every penny and just having the Ultimate and knowing your adapter combination will keep you working, if not at least renting. At least in my neck of the woods my Ultimate kit goes for a very decent penny and everyone comes back to use it because, for lack of a better term, the image quality wastes everything else.

I've since considered a second unit, was going to get one then held off. I'll probably get another at the beginning of the year as the last addition to sub RED/Scarlet kit ownership and call it a day.

EMERET-- (sorry if I spelled that wrong) -- Yeah, get the backfocus adjustment if you plan on using at least one other lens mount. That's one feature that new users and rentals love because they know they can get backfocus on and their AC can pull marks on PL glass. It's a very professional addition and we have Tim and Lenny to thank for the additions of these things. If you can afford it, get it. If you can afford the Ultimate I wouldn't even hesitate pulling the trigger.

JOSEPH -- You know we're family and this isn't the right thread to get into it, just remember that "Content is King" is a misnomer. There are several "bad" movies that look EXTREMELY good that get sold, watched, bought, etc. etc. and I'm not talking about features with A list names. Your image matters just as much as the content and the sound. They all should be "on the level", not just the content. So, in response to your question?

Yeah, I'd shell out on it to not only seperate my image from the masses before the floodgates are officialy torn down, but to take advantage of the benefits these things bring to overall production value. It's not hard to learn how to use an adapter, it's not hard to one man crew it on a tight budget. The trade-off is very well worth it so long as the adapter itself is up to snuff.
 
Why argue about it, see for yourself

Why argue about it, see for yourself

See the difference yourself on Dec. 5th. Same scene comparison of both adapters Ultimate, Elite and Redrock and even seem them compared to 35mm film, RED, Nikon D90 and Canon 5D Mark II.

p1045724902-4.jpg
 
Well aside from being easier to use, how do the images compare? Because in Zacuto's camera shootout ( http://www.vimeo.com/2437826 ) I noticed that the Ultimate on the HVX looked a lot softer and less clear than the image of the elite and HVX. The Elite looks way better in that vid.

Also, what are the differences between the elite and extreme? Thanks a lot.
 
Elite has the backfocus adjustment of the Ultimate. Elite and Extreme have the exact same optics. Ultimate can be used at higher shutter speeds and can be stopped down all the way to f/22.
 
Entity said:
Because in Zacuto's camera shootout ( http://www.vimeo.com/2437826 ) I noticed that the Ultimate on the HVX looked a lot softer and less clear than the image of the elite and HVX. The Elite looks way better in that vid.
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Yes, the 200/Ultimate looked soft. So did the Red to a lesser extent. I have an Ultimate and it is as sharp as a P+S Pro35, however, edge to edge focus on an
HVX200 or 200A is not very good with the Letus achromat. The HPX170 would
have been better for uniform focus, or the EX1, which has great resolution and edge to edge in 1080.

The HPX3000 looked very detailed, but had too much depth of field. 35mm looked
great, the Red and the DOF adapters looked to have shallower DOF than 35mm.
My least favorite cameras were the Canon and Nikon DSLR models, IMO.
 
In my opinion, it wasn't a valid "shoot" out. If you're going to show the HVX200 with 35mm adapters, then show all of the smaller sensor cameras (A1, EX3) with adapters. I actually found the A1's footage one of the more pleasing. It just needed an adapter to get the DOF.
 
Adding adapters to all the smaller cameras adds more variables and time. Unfortunately we only had our performers for so long. I do not see why the HVX200 is not sufficient for adapter use and demonstration of such. I would say that the majority of adapter users are using the HVX200 or 200A. And from what my friend Kholi tells me, the 170 has some problems. Anyway, there's a reason the A1 is becoming a popular camera. However I feel that once you look at the full resolution footage, you might see some minor differences than what you're looking at on Vimeo.
 
Joseph Stunzi said:
I do not see why the HVX200 is not sufficient for adapter use and demonstration of such. I would say that the majority of adapter users are using the HVX200 or 200A. And from what my friend Kholi tells me, the 170 has some problems..
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Joe, thank you for your work with the camera tests. I enjoyed the video.

There is nothing wrong with using an HVX200 or 200A with an adapter, it's just that the Letus achromat does not give good edge to edge focus with them. The same achromat looks great edge to edge with the HPX170 and EX1. All the Panasonic cameras show almost no chromatic aberration with the Ultimate, the EX1 a bit more on the edges.

My experience with an HVX200A and my Ultimate is that there is a center focus point and a different focus point for the sides/corners and a third focus point for compromise focus. This is not just visible on wedge charts, but noticeable in live
action shots.

The HPX170 is a great camera for adapters due to its feature set and small size weight. The problems with the 170, the first of which I found(lens wobble) have been addressed, the second is noise and I spent many hours comparing a 170 to a 200A, switching back and forth in component with coring a +2 with the 170(Barry Green found this means to match the two cameras). I believe the two cameras to be comparable in noise and better than a 200.

An EX1 in 1080/24p with an Ultimate is absolutely stunning, although the EX1 is 1.5 stops slower than my HDX900.

Huy VU rented my Ultimate and he certainly saw a big difference over his LEX with an HVX and I believe the sharpness difference is more apparent with an EX1.
 
I would think the EX-1 has quite the visible sharpness difference! Okay that's interesting with the 170 and sharpness. I thought the HVX optimization kit had fixed this. Guess not. Cool to know thanks for the info!
 
Joseph Stunzi said:
Adding adapters to all the smaller cameras adds more variables and time. Unfortunately we only had our performers for so long.
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Understandable.

Joseph Stunzi said:
I do not see why the HVX200 is not sufficient for adapter use and demonstration of such.
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The resolution and color depth between the HVX, A1, and EX are completely different and produce different images. A "shoot-out" implies that, other than the cameras, all other factors are identical...apples with apples. This was apples and oranges. I'm not saying the information wasn't usesfull and I did enjoy it. I just don't think you can say it's a fair comparison.

Joseph Stunzi said:
I would say that the majority of adapter users are using the HVX200 or 200A.
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What are you basing that on? Not sure that everyone would agree with you.


Joseph Stunzi said:
However I feel that once you look at the full resolution footage, you might see some minor differences than what you're looking at on Vimeo.
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I did download the footage and reviewed it multiple times and came to the conclusion that the A1 footage was some of the better footage. Of course, this is totally subjective and my personal opinion, as are all my comments. :)
 
Well the solution to your problems lies in a future test I'm doing. However it won't be as easy as this version 2 shootout for Zacuto. This is something I'm doing on my own with IENCE (my nonprofit science education media company). We'd like to shoot with 3 different cameras (170/200, EX-1, and A1) and with 7 different adapters (M2, Brevis, SGBlade, Ultimate, Elite/Extreme, G35, Mini 35) and two different lighting situations (lit for most light hunry, lit for most light sensative) with everything else fixed (f-stop, camera settings, etc.) You'd get detailed notes on focus and zoom as well for each. If you math it out that's like 42 different setups to do! It wouldn't be easy and would probably take about a week of time in my studio and with proper planning.

So if that's something that might be of interest, I'm looking for an A1 and EX-1. Feel free to put me in touch with anyone you know at Canon, Pansonic, or Sony! :) I have most of the adapters lined up already. So it's just a matter of getting it going. I'm shooting to do this in late January/early February of 2009.


Almost forgot, you'd get detailed information about actual light loss from each camera and I'd be capturing to ProRes with an AJA ioHD instead of native format for each camera so you could see as much detail as humanly possible out of the beasts.
 
That certainly sounds good. If I lived near you, I'd lend you an A1 for the shoot. Unforutnately, I'm almost 3,000 miles away. Maybe there are A1 and EX users in this forum that would be willing to help you get that done? I'm sure it would benefit all of us.
 
I could always rent and am willing to do so, I'm just trying to minimize the overall cost of equipment because I'll already be renting the mini35 mostlikely. I also was considering doing a PL mount test with each as well. But that's even more cost and time!

So anyone that works for Canon, Sony, or Panasonic... or resells their products.... feel free to PM me up!
 
zacuto said:
See the difference yourself on Dec. 5th. Same scene comparison of both adapters Ultimate, Elite and Redrock and even seem them compared to 35mm film, RED, Nikon D90 and Canon 5D Mark II.

p1045724902-4.jpg
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Where is the footage? I keep going to Zacutovideo.com and all I get is a round table of four guys talking about cameras. That's nice and all but I can't seem to find the test footage.

Can you post a direct link? Anyone?

Thanks,
 
Joseph Stunzi said:
Adding adapters to all the smaller cameras adds more variables and time. Unfortunately we only had our performers for so long. I do not see why the HVX200 is not sufficient for adapter use and demonstration of such. I would say that the majority of adapter users are using the HVX200 or 200A. And from what my friend Kholi tells me, the 170 has some problems. Anyway, there's a reason the A1 is becoming a popular camera. However I feel that once you look at the full resolution footage, you might see some minor differences than what you're looking at on Vimeo.
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I haven't used an HVX/Adaptor in quite some time since the EX1. I find the EX1/Ultimate a whole different class of image compared to HVX/Ultimate. It's just unbelievably sharp and very good edge to edge. I always found the HVX on its own sub HD in sharpness and noisy in darkness. With an adaptor, as much as I like the soft backgrounds, on a big TV I'd get depressed.

Unlike Koli though, demand for Ultimate in my circles (NYC) have really dropped off since REDs have saturated the market here. If you're torn between Extreme and Ultimate though, spend the extra dough. I think the optics and image in the Ultimate are a whole different game. Clients eventually figure that out (a bit later than us camera guys) and demand the prettier picture - content be damned. Letus finally got rid of the play issue on the lens mount which would have been a lens shaker deal breaker.

If the Blade stacks up image wise and the pound continues to fall to the dollar I may jump in. I'm waiting on some unbiased footage from our "Beta" boys. But even testing says little about a products heavy use durability. And that's always the thing about every adaptor I've used (barring the PS Tech), I've never been able to fully trust their reliability - they've all failed on me one time or another, on jobs no less. Some more than others. Their really should be a separate thread here that just reports on product reliability and customer service. Anyone still waiting on their 9" HD monitor? Does your vendor have an address and human on the phone? I'll stop the rant. I've spoken to Hien many times in person.

I really wish for a flipping, static adaptor that can go up to an 8.0. By the time that comes, Scarlet will probably obviate the need. The last note is that convergent design is finally shipping. Who's going to be the one and figure out how to hook it up to a DSLR? That would be cool.
 
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Easy! Take a HDMI to HD-SDI converter box from AJA and hook it up between the HDMI of the DSLR and the HD SDI of the Flash XDR. The end.
 
What is the output on the HDMI from D90 or 5D?

Anyway, I saw the tests. Very cool. Thanks for the effort.

I'm perplexed by a few things. I've a few questions:

1) Why was the f stop at 1.4? The ZF's are not good wide open especially compared to the Superspeeds (which too are less than great wide open but much better than ZFs). They really don't begin to perform especially on the edges until your between 2-2.8.

2) Did you correct the X/Y on the Ultimate? This could be the cause of what looks like very soft left edge.

3) Any reason for not testing the RED with the PL Superspeeds? I would've loved to see the RED with the same lens as the film camera as film seems to be its direct competition. I'm beginning to wonder about the Nikon mount collimation. I just finished a RED shoot with PL and I've never seen anything so soft. Something seems amiss with the RED being that soft - I'm beginning to suspect the mount, lens or both.

4) How were the other adaptors checked for collimation? I wonder about the collimation in some of the other adaptor tests as I wouldn't expect the Ulimtate to be softer than the Elite. I thought that Ultimate footage was pretty unuseable which hasn't been my experience with it - even with an HVX. For such a vast difference you just have to wonder.

5) Do you have full rez screen grabs? I'm not sure if the transcoding effected the comparison. Did film have the most direct path to the final format? What did you transcode with to 1080p.

Sorry to have all these questions but like you said, we wouldn't expect the results. So naturally I begin to wonder how and why things were done.


I'm sure it belongs on a different forum altogether but I'd really love to see a head to head with film vs RED.

Overall, I like the set up of the test. You had decent contrast, etc. I know how time consuming these things are. I'll be running a bunch of tests on a recently purchased RED, basically lens stuff. Will keep you posted.

If you do have the time, EX3 with adpator is worth testing.
 
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