Al MacLeod
Well-known member
Just don't call him a bad teacher...
HVX200A and HPX170 "noise" testing results
- Thread starter Barry_Green
- Start date
Al MacLeod
Well-known member
All kidding aside, we all have agendas or bias...Barry backs his stuff up. Nobody puts out info and examples like Barry on this or any other board I've seen.
This is great news, im getting my 170 back tomorrow from lens wobble repair. My coring setting was always +2, perhaps I should use +3 or even 4.
I really do prefer the 170 image over the 200a in those comparisons. It's ironic to me how truly different the cams look compared to one another.
but, the +4 coring seems to blend the image together a little more on the 170, meaning, of course, less high frequency detail. But idk, to me it still looks superb compared to the 200a. I prefer the +4 look actually, more like a painting, less like a crawling ant farm of noise
I really do prefer the 170 image over the 200a in those comparisons. It's ironic to me how truly different the cams look compared to one another.
but, the +4 coring seems to blend the image together a little more on the 170, meaning, of course, less high frequency detail. But idk, to me it still looks superb compared to the 200a. I prefer the +4 look actually, more like a painting, less like a crawling ant farm of noise
It's not that serious a statement... just a fact. I appreciate everything Barry's done but that first wiggle issue told a lot. He definitely sided with the brand over the user in that case. I just think if you're going to plunk $6,000 down on something, you need the most critical, unbiased view. Am I wrong? Were I to own a 170, he would be the first person I would go to for information on it but at that point he's providing a different service.
Al MacLeod
Well-known member
I'm not jumping on you and for the most part, agree...I just wish the folks putting out opinions and recommendations (not refering to you...
) would document their stuff like Barry. IE: "here's what I believe and this is why I believe it".
It's like watching the news. If you can see the source material, a news report based on that material has value, not as fact but as opinion. It's the folks that hide the source material that cheeze me off.
) would document their stuff like Barry. IE: "here's what I believe and this is why I believe it".It's like watching the news. If you can see the source material, a news report based on that material has value, not as fact but as opinion. It's the folks that hide the source material that cheeze me off.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Tried to let it slide, because I'm tired of it, especially when I torch 8 or so hours doing something like this to benefit everyone else and then to get this annoying "you work for panasonic" claptrap, so ... yeah, next time, I hope those who like to throw that stuff around will do their own tests and post their own results.
Do I make money off of products that I sell to Panasonic users? Yes, I do have some books/DVDs out. I also have products that don't apply to users of any specific brand. Am I a Panasonic employee? Nope. Do I appreciate my efforts being tainted? Frankly, no. But whatever -- the comical thing on this was that we're talking about a 170 vs. a 200A. THE EXACT SAME BOOK GETS PACKAGED WITH BOTH. They're BOTH Panasonic products! So, whatever.
About the wobble issue: I didn't notice any wobble when I had a review unit. Adam Wilt didn't notice any wobble when he had one. Philip Bloom didn't say anything about wobble in the unit he had. Dan Brockett didn't notice any wobble. David Saraceno didn't notice any wobble. In fact, until Dino pointed it out, I can't think of a single reviewer anywhere who said anything about it. I guess we all "work for panasonic"? Yes there turned out to be an issue that could affect some units while others said they didn't have any wobble... and I even sent mine in for the repair - I mean, why not? But the point being, if no reviewer noticed it, does that mean that either a) we're all incompetent, or b) we're all "on the take", or c) maybe it really wasn't THAT BIG of a deal? And if that's the case (and the point I stand behind), was trying to bring a modicum of moderation to the subject really that bad of a reaction?
I put the users first, markyf. I work for the users. It is the users who buy my products, it is the users who visit DVXUser. Hell, the website even says "User" right in its name. Even though I didn't think the wobble was any big deal at all, I still went out of my way to establish side-by-side tests, gather footage, split-screen it and forward it on to Panasonic so they could see the ways it could potentially affect users. Apparently others did as well. And Panasonic halted and changed the production line to make sure nobody would be affected by it. So yes, I definitely put the users first, whether you see all the public machinations or not; whether you see what I do behind the scenes or not. I prefer to put my efforts into actually resolving issues rather than just fueling a wild discussion which wasn't accomplishing much other than scaring away people and clients. My opinion; others may differ.
So whatever. Buy whatever you want. Or don't. I'll still occasionally dig into things to find out how they work, because that's what I like doing. Nobody pays me ONE FLAT DIME to do that. And I'll still post the results, and the detailed methodology I used, so that anyone, anywhere, can replicate the exact results. I'll still say what I like and why it matters, like Al said, and that anyone anywhere is entitled to have different priorities and to say that too. It just helps if they can demonstrate why they believe what they do, so we can then examine the evidence and implement solutions or workarounds or whatever, so that folks are empowered to get the results they're trying to get.
Do I make money off of products that I sell to Panasonic users? Yes, I do have some books/DVDs out. I also have products that don't apply to users of any specific brand. Am I a Panasonic employee? Nope. Do I appreciate my efforts being tainted? Frankly, no. But whatever -- the comical thing on this was that we're talking about a 170 vs. a 200A. THE EXACT SAME BOOK GETS PACKAGED WITH BOTH. They're BOTH Panasonic products! So, whatever.
About the wobble issue: I didn't notice any wobble when I had a review unit. Adam Wilt didn't notice any wobble when he had one. Philip Bloom didn't say anything about wobble in the unit he had. Dan Brockett didn't notice any wobble. David Saraceno didn't notice any wobble. In fact, until Dino pointed it out, I can't think of a single reviewer anywhere who said anything about it. I guess we all "work for panasonic"? Yes there turned out to be an issue that could affect some units while others said they didn't have any wobble... and I even sent mine in for the repair - I mean, why not? But the point being, if no reviewer noticed it, does that mean that either a) we're all incompetent, or b) we're all "on the take", or c) maybe it really wasn't THAT BIG of a deal? And if that's the case (and the point I stand behind), was trying to bring a modicum of moderation to the subject really that bad of a reaction?
I put the users first, markyf. I work for the users. It is the users who buy my products, it is the users who visit DVXUser. Hell, the website even says "User" right in its name. Even though I didn't think the wobble was any big deal at all, I still went out of my way to establish side-by-side tests, gather footage, split-screen it and forward it on to Panasonic so they could see the ways it could potentially affect users. Apparently others did as well. And Panasonic halted and changed the production line to make sure nobody would be affected by it. So yes, I definitely put the users first, whether you see all the public machinations or not; whether you see what I do behind the scenes or not. I prefer to put my efforts into actually resolving issues rather than just fueling a wild discussion which wasn't accomplishing much other than scaring away people and clients. My opinion; others may differ.
So whatever. Buy whatever you want. Or don't. I'll still occasionally dig into things to find out how they work, because that's what I like doing. Nobody pays me ONE FLAT DIME to do that. And I'll still post the results, and the detailed methodology I used, so that anyone, anywhere, can replicate the exact results. I'll still say what I like and why it matters, like Al said, and that anyone anywhere is entitled to have different priorities and to say that too. It just helps if they can demonstrate why they believe what they do, so we can then examine the evidence and implement solutions or workarounds or whatever, so that folks are empowered to get the results they're trying to get.
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TedRR
Well-known member
markyf, FWIW, Dino managed to express that it could be related to flaws in some cameras without dismissing Barry's knowledge of the cameras or his credibility.
Maybe you didn’t intend it the way many of us read it, but saying you "believed" those complaining OVER Barry and implying he was not truthful because he is paid by Panasonic was not the best way to explain your stance or give credibility to your integrity.
You gotta remember that when you type things, people don't hear your inflection or see your face. Forums have a tendency to get testy.
So hopefully you didn't intend it as many of us read it and we can get back to helping each other on the forum. Just remember, chose your words carefully, especially when talking about one of the MOST credible, knowledgeable and helpful people on this forum. JMHO. :thumbup:
I meant no offense, Barry, and if I had to write it again I would rephrase it, but you can't deny you are staunch defender of Panasonic products. That's not a bad thing, it just needs to be taken into account. I think all of us who are keenly interested in this debate are frustrated when the foremost camera geek, Kholi, and the person with the best knowledge of Panasonic cameras, you, reach diametrically opposite conclusions about a product. It's hard to know what to think and it's unfortunate seeing how excited some of us are for this new camera. But if I stepped over the line, I apologize.
Barry_Green
Moderator
No worries, and it is indeed completely baffling as to how Kholi and Dino are on one side and me and DC and Dan and others are on the other side. That's why I posted footage, to at least make sure we were seeing the same things.
Defender? Yes, since this site has its origins as a group for DVX100 users who came together because that product unified the indie film world and there's a lot of history around it. So yeah, guilty as charged on that, but only so far as the evidence will carry it. I won't defend an HVX against claims that an EX1 is sharper, because it obviously is, etc. But if someone says that an HVX isn't "HD" then yes I'd defend it because it most definitely is, etc.
Defender? Yes, since this site has its origins as a group for DVX100 users who came together because that product unified the indie film world and there's a lot of history around it. So yeah, guilty as charged on that, but only so far as the evidence will carry it. I won't defend an HVX against claims that an EX1 is sharper, because it obviously is, etc. But if someone says that an HVX isn't "HD" then yes I'd defend it because it most definitely is, etc.
Dino
Veteran
Good news! I just spoke to Jan Crittendon and she says the moment she looked at my 170 next to her 170, she saw that mine was brighter. It was also noisier. So, she reset the camera and now it matches her camera. She doesn't know why. She and some engineers took pictures that she will send back with my camera.
Everything she's seeing with her camera and now mine after reset are exactly as Barry described in his test. +2 coring will improve noise a bit, it will also make the image a bit softer, but the 170 is a tad sharper than the 200A to begin with. It is also a small amount faster, but not like mine was prior to reset--almost a full stop. She also said there will be differences in the look of a 200A and 170 due to different processing.
Anyway, I will wait until I actually test my camera again before I jump too high, but it sure looks like the reset got my camera back to where 170's should normally be and Barry's findings were spot on about a normal produciton 170 and I wasn't imagining what I was seeing. So, Kholi and Willis, try resetting your 170's!
If my 170 is indeed as quiet as a 200A now, I'm a very happy guy--the 170 is such a great camera with my Letus Ultimate, has so many good features over a 200A, it's all good.
A big thank you to Jan and Barry for helping with this issue!
Everything she's seeing with her camera and now mine after reset are exactly as Barry described in his test. +2 coring will improve noise a bit, it will also make the image a bit softer, but the 170 is a tad sharper than the 200A to begin with. It is also a small amount faster, but not like mine was prior to reset--almost a full stop. She also said there will be differences in the look of a 200A and 170 due to different processing.
Anyway, I will wait until I actually test my camera again before I jump too high, but it sure looks like the reset got my camera back to where 170's should normally be and Barry's findings were spot on about a normal produciton 170 and I wasn't imagining what I was seeing. So, Kholi and Willis, try resetting your 170's!
If my 170 is indeed as quiet as a 200A now, I'm a very happy guy--the 170 is such a great camera with my Letus Ultimate, has so many good features over a 200A, it's all good.
A big thank you to Jan and Barry for helping with this issue!
Dino please report back asap. If that's the case my camera is going straight to NJ asap.
Thanks to Jan for looking into the issue.
Jan_Crittenden
Veteran
Yes, I reset the scene files and the user files. Then his camera looked like mine. It was quieter than the 200A but just a smidgy so. The +2 detail coring cost a little resolution but the image matched the 200A in texture better.
Hope this helps. And Kholi, just reset the camera on both menus, Scene files and user files. Turn the camera off and then back on. It should look like the HPX170 you saw back at CineGear.
Best,
Jan
Hope this helps. And Kholi, just reset the camera on both menus, Scene files and user files. Turn the camera off and then back on. It should look like the HPX170 you saw back at CineGear.
Best,
Jan
Sweet fix!
I'm going to reset an old hvx to see if it eliminates some noise.
He he he, wishfull thinking
LOL. Nice.
I've been waiting this all out to see if this all gets fixed.
DC
Cinematographiliac
noise and wobbles
noise and wobbles
Barry,
Thank you for your continued support of the community. You catch a lot of praise and a lot of flak for your efforts. The wobble was never anywhere near a "showstopper" for me. And this "noise" issue is also a non-issue for me. I didn't post footage, because quite frankly, my time is very limited to run these elaborate tests and then post the results and then get into endless forum debates. You're the better man, my friend. Me? I just want to shoot stuff!
:thumbsup: and :dankk2:
noise and wobbles
Barry,
Thank you for your continued support of the community. You catch a lot of praise and a lot of flak for your efforts. The wobble was never anywhere near a "showstopper" for me. And this "noise" issue is also a non-issue for me. I didn't post footage, because quite frankly, my time is very limited to run these elaborate tests and then post the results and then get into endless forum debates. You're the better man, my friend. Me? I just want to shoot stuff!
:thumbsup: and :dankk2: