Film education =(/=) Twilight fest

[Mile Bozicevic]

I was watching some TV show about film, and the subject was the future of film.
Somewhere within he show, one director of photography said there are 'awfuly lot of people who wants to create a film, but they don't have a proper education fo that. I can't build a skycraper when there's ton of arhitects, and I can't conduct a philharmonic orchestra because I am NOT a conductor.' He was saying that in context of modern digital age, that enables the whole filmmaking process accesible for a large variety of people.

Well, I don't want to drag this question, but the same thing occured to me a couple of times whenever I ran into someone from film industry. It's like, the digital age is piece of sh** because people like myself has the opportunity to create something, and what's most important, is that that something couldn't possibly be called film, or by that matter anything else I do in future.

My question is, how many of people here are educated in some part of film, what are their experiences etc...No need to write novels (like myself here:huh, but I'm just wondering who are the people behind those films I watched these past days. Some are obviously a product of love for filmmaking without too much experience (such as my own), but some are obviously high-rated, and it is a question what would some of those filmmakers make if they had a budget od couple of millions of dollars etc.

So, in short-what's your level of education and experience till now?

I worked on local TV station for about 2 years now, tried to enter the film academy for montage (got between final 12, they take only 5-of course I didn't make it), did some documentary, one short before this one (but that was really trash and weak) and that's about it. So in filmmaking, this is so far my biggest experience yet, the closest I got. No education, self-taught by pretty much everything (books, internet...).

 

[Mike Manning]

I majored in Film Production at a 4 year university here in Los Angeles - as did the majority of my crew. I've been making short films since I was in High School - so I guess it's a combination of what you're asking.
Honestly though, a film education really isn't as important as the time and experience spent on set. I learned more working on everyone's films than I ever did in the class room.
The best advice I can give for perfecting your craft is to buddy up with people who have experience in different aspects of film making.. find someone who loves production design, find a cinematographer who knows how to use a light meter, find a composer, find someone who loves to edit... find as MANY people as you can and just keep making films. Work your way on to other peoples sets..see how they're run. PA for them. Soak up as much as you can and keep practicing!

 

[Adam Beck]

Great advice Mike. I too am just starting out. I've read a lot and watch anything I could get my hands on over the past couple of years. This was my first film that I submitted for Twilight Fest. I learned so much in this one experince. I plan on taking full advantage of this site to network with other filmmakers. Here is an open call to anyone in Central California who needs help on their next project, count me in!

 

[pauly_the_hitman]

I have been going to the school of Hard Knocks for many years. I took AV in High School did the video yearbook shot lots of pictures in high school and shelfed it for many years and it has finally consumed me again in the last 5-6 years. I am sold out on making it in this business one way or another. I have no formal training and everything we do is self thought just have an eye for it I guess. I am in the school of do it and don't waste time and money on school unless it something you really want to do. I have read rebel without a crew like a hundred times and I still believe in just doing it and not talking about it or wasting time in a class room which teaches you how to be a PA or grip on a real set till you move up the ranks, skip that go right to being a PA or grip and learn and work and save the money you would spend on film school give it to me and I will make a feature and sell it and we will all be able to make more and more feature films and start making it in the business. WHEW sorry lost my mind for a second...
Pauly

 

[stinkpot]

I majored in Film Production at a 4 year university here in Los Angeles - as did the majority of my crew. I've been making short films since I was in High School - so I guess it's a combination of what you're asking.
Honestly though, a film education really isn't as important as the time and experience spent on set. I learned more working on everyone's films than I ever did in the class room.
The best advice I can give for perfecting your craft is to buddy up with people who have experience in different aspects of film making.. find someone who loves production design, find a cinematographer who knows how to use a light meter, find a composer, find someone who loves to edit... find as MANY people as you can and just keep making films. Work your way on to other peoples sets..see how they're run. PA for them. Soak up as much as you can and keep practicing!

Mike. Your experience and education really show through in your film. I agree that experience is the best way to learn.

Possible Charlie is ultimately my first film other than some test stuff and monkeying around (my education is in science). Personally, I have learned a vast amount by having a full cast, crew, two locations, insurance, food and most challenging... the shooting schedule.

I believe that my films will only get better each time because of these experiences.
:beer:

 

[ZazaCast]

I agree with the above. Knowledge is power... read, learn, shoot, get involved anyway possible. I've been involved with video production for years, as it's part of my business developing interactive multimedia. Now that I have some time, I can finally start to 'spread my wings', so to speak and create films for myself...my vision...my expression. To have fun & learn the art of making the short. To make mistakes and stumble on those great shots that just happen! This stuff is fun. Make films, be true to yourself...

 

[Mike Manning]

I have been going to the school of Hard Knocks for many years. I took AV in High School did the video yearbook shot lots of pictures in high school and shelfed it for many years and it has finally consumed me again in the last 5-6 years. I am sold out on making it in this business one way or another. I have no formal training and everything we do is self thought just have an eye for it I guess. I am in the school of do it and don't waste time and money on school unless it something you really want to do. I have read rebel without a crew like a hundred times and I still believe in just doing it and not talking about it or wasting time in a class room which teaches you how to be a PA or grip on a real set till you move up the ranks, skip that go right to being a PA or grip and learn and work and save the money you would spend on film school give it to me and I will make a feature and sell it and we will all be able to make more and more feature films and start making it in the business. WHEW sorry lost my mind for a second...
Pauly

its easy to knock film school... but let me tell you something.. i might not have learned much in class... but it definitely provided the venue for meeting like-minded talented individual who are passionate about different aspects of filmmaking.
"A Work of Art" would have been nothing without the people I met in school..
My cinematographer, gaffer, key grip, and producers were all in my graduating class. My production designer was a class above me, and I met him working under his art department on his senior thesis film. My script supervisors were from the class below me, along with my 2nd Ad and best boy. All of these amazingly talented people would not have been in my life if it weren't for film school and I'm so glad to have befriended every one of them. They're my crew for life, and if I'm lucky enough to strike gold and get to make movies for a living, you can damn well count on me bringing them with me.
So yeah, in the end, I recommend film school - if you're going the independent route. If you just wanna work your way up the ranks from PA.. film school could be a waste of money.

 

[alex whitmer]

Found this rant in another forum - a writer's forum, and hense a writer's point of view ...

There are far too many so called "production companies" on the landscape that are in the moviemaking business due to the fact that consumer-grade HD cameras are ridiculously affordable. To paraphrase John Waters, Just because you have a camera in your hands doesn't make you a filmmaker. He goes on to say that he liked it better before video showed up on the scene due to that fact that it was harder and more expensive to make a movie. The process was less democratic, but it weeded out a lot of people who have no business calling themselves moviemakers. He adds that anyone who watches the Independent Film Channel or goes to local film festivals can see that 80% of what's out there is crap. There's a reason these films will never get distribution deals. They're terrible. I think Mr. Waters' view is a little extreme. If you know anything about the man, he is a provocateur who plays for laughs. But, he does raise an interesting issue.

I recently had an experience that confirmed in my mind the point Mr. Waters was making. A fledgling production company (I'd prefer not to name names) sent me a script, asking if I'd like to be involved in the production of this "feature." I was horrified. This screenplay was about as bad as it gets. Poorly constructed story, elementary school dialog and so chock full of cliches I lost count after the first ten pages. As diplomatically as possible, I told these two gentlemen that this script needed some serious work. That was out of the question. Shooting was scheduled to begin in a month. Casting was already in progress. They said they had some ideas for polishing, but what I held in my hands was essentially the shooting script.

I declined to participate. I know what an ordeal it is to shoot a low budget feature. I'd produced one in 2001. There's no sense in putting that much effort into something that was starting out so badly. And then it got worse. The senior of the two partners said that he thought that in most cases what could be accomplished quickly was good. Beyond that, things seem "labored over." I suppose he's counting on a certain level of energy and passion to overcome the less than spectacular script. But "labored over"?! It's clear to me he has no appreciation for the craft. And that's sad.

Flash forward eight months. The movie is completed. It has a famous B-movie actor in it. Because it was shot in high-def it looks presentable, but the movie is bad. Real bad. Big surprise. So bad it can't even get into local festivals.
These guys may be at the far end of the spectrum, but be warned, dear writers. They're out there. In spades. Legions of excited moviemakers with digital equipment at their disposal hanging out the production company shingle. They have little or no appreciation for the craft of screenwriting. Of acting. Of storytelling in general. They have digital high-def cameras and desk top editing systems and they're hell bent on making movies. They'll point to Robert Rodriguez as a prime example. Believe me, the people I'm describing are not the second coming of Robert Rodriguez. The defining factor - Rodriguez has talent.

So, be forewarned. There are many, many out there who just don't get it. They could read the script for "Memento" and not understand why it's considered superior to the script for "Tokyo Drift." They could watch Cate Blanchett's performance (pick almost any) and not understand how it's any better than their friend, Kyle's gut wrenching performance when the masked chainsaw-wielding maniac had poor Kyle cornered in the basement.

So if and when you get a "Pass" or a "no thanks" it may very well be that your script didn't hit the mark, or it may need some work. But there's also the chance that the people reading it were web designers a day before they bought their new camera. Now they're movie producers.

*****​

Agree somewhat.

In a nutshell, a strong script and a director/crew who understand film need to be in sync. That said, having read nearly every thread and comment, there appears to be little consensus on what makes a good film, a good performance, good lighting, good sound, good concept, good framing, good directing, etc. My uneduacated guess would be that film, like any art, is subject to knee-jerk reactions, critical analysis, sound advice, flatulence, genuine feedback based on similar experiences, crony accolades, emotional sentiments, etc.

Either way, being from a film school background, or a school of hard knocks, making a film and putting it out there is a huge accomplisment - and risk. What we take away after all the comments are in is what shows up in our next film. Better writing, better lighting, better sound editing, more footage, etc.

There is no better school than an audience, and no matter how far-fetched we may feel a particular opinion or technical advice may seem, it is still valid. What we keep and what we discard is a personal choice. How we improve is what counts.

It's art. You can either strive to be a Kinkade, or a van Gogh. Some will get it. Some wont. Nobody got Gauguin. Rembrandt died penniless. Van Gogh? Dismissed as an idiot.

They all knew their craft, but they dared to do it different.

Aim high no matter what. In the end, experience and the school of hard knocks will be your best teacher.

There are things film school just can't or doesn't teach. Reality rears its ugly head in the worst times.

 

[Michael Anthony Horrigan]

I've learned everything from the helpful people on this forum.

Here's pretty much my FIRST post here. Embarrassing, but I'll link to it anyway.
You can find the thread HERE. The link to the movie is HERE.

I took my Sister's old Sony camcorder and shot this movie in a couple of hours with my friends. We weren't even allowed to shoot there.
No actors, just goofing around. No real script, just notes really, and an idea. No lighting gear, on camera mic, you get the picture...

Don't expect much.

I REALLY appreciated the feedback I received here and that was it, I was hooked.

Edit: Pointed this out to Rodney (puckthemad) earlier today. He forgot that was me.
I was known as Kyser back then.


Mike

 

[Mike Insane]

God what a great question. I especially love everyone's comments. Here is my lineage...

I started out as a want to be actor on a feature by a guy just about to go from junior college to film school here in LA. The movie wasn't great but the people at the core and their effort that went into the film impressed me so much that I wanted to be behind the scenes. That group of people now have a successful production company releasing features. No, they are not studio grade but they are money making and I might add fun to watch. I went on to work with them for a little while longer and then headed up north to finish my degree at CSU, Chico. At the time, bad move for a filmmaker, er a want to be filmmaker. It wasn't because of the education, it was because of the lack of committment and desire of the other students. Drinking took presidence over everything. Or, I just couldn't find the committed ones. When I came home to LA I started over. I worked my way up in the industry, while spending all of my off time making shorts or planning/ producing film related projects.

In hind sight the thing I missed most and value most about this site is the community. I did not get have the oppourtunity to form a team of like minded people like Mike did at his film school. In fact, my team now is way too small and consists of a few, talented but elsewhere committed people. It wasn't until working with the Monster crew that I realised that I could find killer people on this list. I've been a lone gun for so long that I'm honestly afraid to branch out and ask for help. But, that , in my opinion is the most important thing I need to be doing.

Hmmm big time rant, sorry.

Filmschool is about the relationships, both crew and connections. Working your way up the hill by your own sweat and energy is all about learning and mastering your craft. Eventually each one needs the other. The hardest part is defining when that moment has arrived.

Also, anyone needing help on a future project... send me a PM

 

[Darkline]

I agree with Alex big time!

I think though that making cruddy films is essential to becoming a good film-maker. Rarely does anyone make a masterpiece first time round. The digital age means we can learn as we go along and not take up too much money in doing so. I think what Mr Waters takes exception to is these groups claiming to be bigger and better than they really are; I agree that can cause problems. I find actors and crew are less willing to be involved in projects these days on spec, because they know 99% of them will be awful. Of course a showreel can solve that if you have a few films under your belt.

Conversley, Ive known a few people who have the gift of the gab, but unfortunately not the gift of film-making or even any technical training at all. I've been amazed at some of the resources people have pulled in for such bad movies. Amazed. They still turned out awful but the sad fact is the bull in the china shop will get his opportunity simply because he can talk himself up. I'm pretty much the opposite, I tell people not to get invovled with my films because there isnt going to be much in it for them - good marketing huh?

I went to media college and learnt nothing. The only exception was I did gain an appreciation for World Cinema, I was 18 and up till that point my idea of a 'good' film was somewhat limited to hollywood action and horror.

Once I left I got a job helping out a company as assistant editor and later worked for a conference company, editing corporate videos and then shooting/directing them. The great thing about it is that you learn all the discaplines technically - small companies means you have to multi-task on everything. But it still does not prepare you for drama, and once I learnt the basics or corporate video I found I was stagnant, creatively and technically.

So only in the last few years have I made a few shorts in my spare time. I starred/directed - whatever we needed to get the things done with 2/3 of us. Not saying that is the best way, but it is one way of learning your craft and knowing the only person you're going to dissapoint is yourself and your mates.

No amount of reading/learning will stop you from making mistakes, you will make them. It's all good resource, but I thought my first short was going to be 'perfect' .lol. Little did I know. I'm only just getting started and I wish I had done it 10 years ago.

Just do it, and learn as you do, surround yourself with cinema. Watch films you normally wouldn't. If you are serious about film-making you wont shut youself off to any genre or origin of production.

Skills are learnt and talent can be nurtured without spending a ton of money or getting an army involved. As much as you'll get feedback on these boards over your film telling you what the problems were; you'll find with a bit of time away from it you'll be your harshest critic.

For me thats when you learn, not when someone tells you your film could be better, but when you really believe yourself that it could be. The comments on these boards become most helpful months later, at a time when you can really go back, be objective about what you made and really take on board what people say. It's hard to do that when you've just given birth to it.