Help me choose my new camera before my family kills me

[PerroneFord]

I'm at home now, but I think it's a profile I pulled of the "other forum" a couple of months ago.

 

[reem12]

Hey koli, Just got my 200a in today, and cine d is as clean as b press, and I also bumped the gain up to 12db and it was very acceptable. with 0 gain it is extremely clean, even when irised way down.

The thing that was striking to me is how the 200a was able to retain those saturated colors even with gain at 12 db. this is not the case on my canon a1. I'm so glad i held out and not make my usual compulsive buy.

For some their needs may be sdi, good onboard monitor, etc., but for me, image quality outweighs them all.

 

[Kholi]

Hey koli, Just got my 200a in today, and cine d is as clean as b press, and I also bumped the gain up to 12db and it was very acceptable. with 0 gain it is extremely clean, even when irised way down.

The thing that was striking to me is how the 200a was able to retain those saturated colors even with gain at 12 db. this is not the case on my canon a1. I'm so glad i held out and not make my usual compulsive buy.

For some their needs may be sdi, good onboard monitor, etc., but for me, image quality outweighs them all.

I know it is, man. =T Makes me sad to know that the 200A's image didn't carry over to the 170. Such great features and then they had to go and do whatever they did.

I know nobody has the definite on it, but, I'm standing by my word that it's not the same image as far as signal/noise ratios go.

 

[arrestthisman]

Alright... all of this aside, this is what is on my mind. MACROBLOCKS.

I can't F****** stand them! All of my low light HVX200 footage had the ugliest macroblocks. I bought the HVX because of the DVCPRO HD codec, which I thought was superior to HDV (and maybe for most things it still is), and yet macroblocks! Always. Every damn image!

I don't mind noise, I don't mind grain; even low resolution isn't a problem for me.... I mind macroblocks.

So far, from what I've seen in low light, the XDCAM EX codec, for whatever reason is far less subject to the legos that haunt me.

I don't know about AVCHD. Barry said 720P on the HMC150 looked "visually uncompressed." Of course 720p @ 4:2:0 is not a lot of color. That said...

For all intents and purposes, does chroma subsampling really make THAT much of a difference outside of the realm of greenscreen?

Barry also wrote that 4:2:2 could possibly have more than double the chroma of 4:2:0. I forget the exact reasoning.

I don't know. I'm eager to get something and start shooting. I'm also eager to hear about scarlet, which will be announced nov 13th, I think.

Here's the thing. The EX1 is quite an investment, but one I'm more than happy to make if it means not tearing my hair out over artifacts that ruin the image to me. I'm also thinking that next year is going to be a big one for new Digital Cinema cameras; which really is what I'm after.

But that's all a big question mark.

So, do I want a bridge to the next, as yet unknown camera (with better or no compression). This would be something like the HMC150, since it is very inexpensive and probably will get the job done... editing is going to suck, though.

OR

EX1, and keep the cam, for a longer time being it's twice the money. It probably will have less headaches in post.

I'm also still worried about 4:2:0. Long GOP doesn't bother me, but I do A LOT of color correction and image manipulation. DVCPRO HD did hold up to THOSE rigors pretty well. I am always surprised at how much I can bend things without breaking it. ("If it bends... it's funny, if it breaks, it's not funny.") While RAW (working with Red ONE footage) is insane in terms of manipulation, there isn't as big of a discrepancy as one would think.

Any thoughts?

 

[PerroneFord]

Here's the thing. The EX1 is quite an investment, but one I'm more than happy to make if it means not tearing my hair out over artifacts that ruin the image to me.

Artifacts on the EX1 are going to come from two things.

1. Rolling shutter. This shows as partial frames depending on exposure, but more as skew. It can be an issue in quick panning.

2. Codec. The 35 mbps codec is very good. But it's not perfect, and can be broken.

The camera has it's strengths, including it's ability to work cleanly in VERY little light as you have seen. The SDI port completely nullifies problem #2 above, though it does cost more money to do. It is full raster, it's sharp as a da** tack, it have lovely audio, and incredible flexibility in terms of adjusting the camera parameters. But it's far from perfect.

I'm also thinking that next year is going to be a big one for new Digital Cinema cameras; which really is what I'm after.

What get's announced, and what ships, are two totally different things. I nearly sat this year out and waited for Scarlet. At this point, I am VERY glad I didn't. I'm sure it will be a great camera when it comes... but I don't know when that is going to be.

EX1, and keep the cam, for a longer time being it's twice the money. It probably will have less headaches in post.

Or, you could buy an EX1, shoot it, make money, and sell it in a year or two. The media costs are no longer an issue. In a year, you could upgrade to an SDI recorder and KEEP THAT for the path going forward. You'd probably earn enough with the camera to make any loss from selling it, essentially a wash.

I'm also still worried about 4:2:0. Long GOP doesn't bother me, but I do A LOT of color correction and image manipulation.

Remeber you are talking about two different things here. Chroma subsampling is not the same as manipulation in post. 4:2:0 subsampling on a full raster image is going to be VERY close to the same color information from a 1280x1080 4:2:2. We've already run the numbers here once before and the color information is darn close. Just slightly in favor of DVCProHD.

Pushing those colors around in post is another matter. However, even the big boys transcode to do it. Whether it's to ProResHQ, or a 10 bit codec like Blackmagic/AJA, or to cineform. Asking to do heavy manipulation on any acquisition format in our price range is asking a lot.


These are just my thoughts as a newbie approaching this minefield. There are a lot of issues out there, and a lot of tools to solve issues. And the workflows aren't always as clean as one would like. But there is a tradeoff for money and time. I have more time than money, so I transcode, and do my work. Others who have more money, can purchase tools to keep them from transcoding.

In the end, it's all about getting the product out there. The nuts and bolts really don't matter much in the end.

 

[grimrebes]

I don't know how many others out there would agree, but I have really appreciated this topic and the detail given with the EX1 and HVX/HPX.
The more you chat, the more I learn