Finally got to see "the big three" cameras on a HD projector

Remember Cr2nk (Crank 2) is being shot on the XL-H1 and A1s and HF-100s as well so the Canon's are being put to good use. I want one. It hits the sweet spot. I do like the idea of solid state, but I'm thinking about getting Firestore if I can afford it. But right now the HCM-150 is looking real good.

-Nate
 
puredrifting said:
You will not get away from the troublesome XDCAM EX codec and chipset even with the more expensive EX-3.
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No, but you can get away from the codec with the little BNC connection right on the camera. And you do that a LOT cheaper than looking at a $30-50k camera.

Now rolling shutter, that's a different issue. What boggles me though is how the RED guys seem to not be so affected by it, even though we know it's there...
 
Because it's not there to the same extent. I used to think so, but, It looks a lot less prevalent in RED Cameras. It might be because of the weight.

Which in case, beef up your EX-1 setups!
 
PerroneFord said:
No, but you can get away from the codec with the little BNC connection right on the camera. And you do that a LOT cheaper than looking at a $30-50k camera.

Now rolling shutter, that's a different issue. What boggles me though is how the RED guys seem to not be so affected by it, even though we know it's there...
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Agreed, but it seems that very few have done this. What exactly would be the options, a desktop Mac Pro with a Kona or something like that? Is there a laptop way to do this even? I keep hearing about the Convergence box but it that even shipping yet? And I think that one is just MPEG 2?

Maybe with the RED guys, because it's much harder to wave a loaded RED package around than an EX1? I dunno. I have only done one shoot with the RED and it never left the tripod ;-)

I shot an interview with the EX1 for Paramount last week, I love the picture, I wish that it could get together with the 170 and have a love child, it would be perfect.

Dan
 
Kholi said:
Because it's not there to the same extent. I used to think so, but, It looks a lot less prevalent in RED Cameras. It might be because of the weight.

Which in case, beef up your EX-1 setups!
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You may be onto something. With the mass of the camera, monitor, red drives, matteboxes, etc., you can't swing that RED like you can an EX1. And maybe the style of filmmaking the RED is used for doesn't call for the fast panning that seems so problematic for the EX1.

I don't know but it is a curious question.
 
puredrifting said:
Agreed, but it seems that very few have done this. What exactly would be the options, a desktop Mac Pro with a Kona or something like that? Is there a laptop way to do this even? I keep hearing about the Convergence box but it that even shipping yet? And I think that one is just MPEG 2?
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You have the options of the Wafian, the Convergent box which is still undergoing some work, but the various models will offer everything from MPEG2 50 Mbps to uncompressed. Honestly, I think the 100 and 160 Mbps at 4:2:2 1080p ought to be enough for most anyone.

puredrifting said:
Maybe with the RED guys, because it's much harder to wave a loaded RED package around than an EX1? I dunno. I have only done one shoot with the RED and it never left the tripod ;-)
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I'm thinking there is something to this. You don't see the large film cameras whipping around either. Clearly, you shoot differently with big hardware. Maybe mimicing that is the answer. But clearly, the rolling shutter forces one to make some compromises. But then I guess all these cameras do.

puredrifting said:
I shot an interview with the EX1 for Paramount last week, I love the picture, I wish that it could get together with the 170 and have a love child, it would be perfect.

Dan
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The amalgam of the HPX170 and the EX1 is out there. It just costs a LOT more than we'd care to pay! :)
 
The reason that rolling shutter doesn't affect the Red shooters as much as EX-1/EX-3 shooters is not entirely due to weight differences (I can swing a Red back and forth just as easily as the EX and see skew) but because Red has tweaked their sensors to get a faster read-rate from them. A Red has less skew coming off the sensor than the EX cameras. Skew is there, but it's not as much.

The reason that the D90 has crazy skew (like cel phone cameras) is because the read rate is much slower from the sensor. It takes more hardware to beef up the speeds.

Interestingly enough, Red has tweaked the skew factor through firmware upgrades. When I first got my cam in January, I noticed the skew a lot. As they upgraded their software, they squeezed more speed out of the hardware to lessen the skew. Now, the skew is not as bothersome as it was months ago. I know how to get to show up easily, but it's definitely improved over the last year.
 
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kenn michael said:
The reason that rolling shutter doesn't affect the Red shooters as much as EX-1/EX-3 shooters is not entirely due to weight differences (I can swing a Red back and forth just as easily as the EX and see skew) but because Red has tweaked their sensors to get a faster read-rate from them. A Red has less skew coming off the sensor than the EX cameras. Skew is there, but it's not as much.

The reason that the D90 has crazy skew (like cel phone cameras) is because the read rate is much slower from the sensor. It takes more hardware to beef up the speeds.

Interestingly enough, Red has tweaked the skew factor through firmware upgrades. When I first got my cam in January, I noticed the skew a lot. As they upgraded their software, they squeezed more speed out of the hardware to lessen the skew. Now, the skew is not as bothersome as it was months ago. I know how to get to show up easily, but it's definitely improved over the last year.
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I know the reason my arm = Jello is due to weight issues. =P Just kiddin'.

Back to shooting! I <3 RED.
 
Yea we really have to wait, as professionals our demand is high, but with time all these issues will be ironed out and then we'll find ourselves dealing with more.
 
Users should really see hvx and adapter footage projected and shot properly. It's truly amazing even with shortcomings.
 
Kholi one day I will... I've seen a lot of my work blown up on an HDTV and I'm floored but I'm still working out kinks here and there (once they are sorted I can't wait).
 
Well at least I'm glad to know that others do understand the skew issue is definitely there and I'm not bonkers. I wish it wasn't there, and the Sony would be the clear winner (minus some color issues), but it is there.

Why the hell is it there anyway? Yes, I understand CMOS chips read different parts of the picture at different times, but my question is why, why the hell would anyone design a chip like that? What possible advantage could that have - even in a still camera? Who would ever want the possibility of different parts of the image registering at a different time?
 
I own an EX-1, i've had rolling shutter, but not as bad as described by blackout.
it's bad though when you have a lock down shot and a bus or something goes by fast.

the HVX might be softer out of the box compared to the EX-1 because the EX-1's 0 setting for sharpening is still sharpening the image a little. if you zoom in on a frame you can see the black and white around sharp edges.

granted the HVX is still a little less sharp, but to do a fair test, you have to really spend some time learning about each camera.

the HVX's advantages are it's 422 color and lack of rolling shutter. try color correcting footage form an EX-1 in "Color", it's fairly obvious how bad that codec really is. Pulling good keys are impossible as well. Try motion tracking something from the EX-1 footage when it's a handheld pan. Not so easy, the skewing will really make it hard to put a CGI element in the shot. oh yeah, and it's cheaper...

the EX-1's advantages are a slightly sharper image and lower noise in low-light situations. and longer recording times.

slap a 35mm adapter on the front of either and the difference in sharpness becomes less important than signal to noise ratio.

so really it's a question of what are you going to be filming. maybe you should get both.

I have no experience with the canon, but i don't like the look of it's footage very much.
 
Very interesting thread.

Like so many others, I'm comparison shopping prior to the purchase of two HD cams. Intially, it was the HPX500, then budgetary considerations demanded by 2/3" HD lense prices forced a cheaper solution.

After researching the issues raised here and other places, I'm now leaning heavily towards the HPX170. The RED Scarlet would obviously have been a desirous choice, but I can't rely on their website release dates and information at this time, and even if it comes out soon..I'm sure the backorder situations would force delivery dates of a year or more...who knows. Bottom line is I need to move into HD now.

Another issue is reliability. Our DVX100's with the redrocks and Nikon glass have been super reliable. I just love to use that little camera. It's the camera that takes a lickin and keeps on tickin. And with the NeatVideo plug and the HD uprez options...it's still not a bad product at all. And we will continue to utilize them for specific projects.

But, we're growing, doing student internships now so a move to HD is necessary.

Sonys, Canons, Panasonics, Reds,....geez...after a month of research I still seem to learn something new to consider when reading the various posts in this forum.

Comments, advice, or suggestions?

Thanks,
Prof. Dunn
 
ProfD said:
Very interesting thread.

Like so many others, I'm comparison shopping prior to the purchase of two HD cams. Intially, it was the HPX500, then budgetary considerations demanded by 2/3" HD lense prices forced a cheaper solution.

After researching the issues raised here and other places, I'm now leaning heavily towards the HPX170. The RED Scarlet would obviously have been a desirous choice, but I can't rely on their website release dates and information at this time, and even if it comes out soon..I'm sure the backorder situations would force delivery dates of a year or more...who knows. Bottom line is I need to move into HD now.

Another issue is reliability. Our DVX100's with the redrocks and Nikon glass have been super reliable. I just love to use that little camera. It's the camera that takes a lickin and keeps on tickin. And with the NeatVideo plug and the HD uprez options...it's still not a bad product at all. And we will continue to utilize them for specific projects.

But, we're growing, doing student internships now so a move to HD is necessary.

Sonys, Canons, Panasonics, Reds,....geez...after a month of research I still seem to learn something new to consider when reading the various posts in this forum.

Comments, advice, or suggestions?

Thanks,
Prof. Dunn
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Hi Prof:

I shoot regularly with the EX1 and I have owned an HVX200 for more than two years. I just sold the HVX and upgraded to the HPX170, it is a really sweet camcorder.

Dan
 
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