24p is on the way out!

[Postmaster]

1. Artistic Choice

2. The market was not ready.

3. Same with resolution and jumpy mcjump jump 24p movement.

4. I would ask you to argue with the scientist and engineers and the marketing departments who are pushing the astronomical number of large format 1080p 120hz HDTV sets on us. They seem to have gotten your numbers all wrong.

5. I hope you have nothing but 24p at 48 Hz or 78 Hz in your personal future! :beer:

1. Artistic Choise

You can justify everything with that.
Why not shooting in super8 or vhs on used 20 year old tapes out of artistic reasons?
Fine in my book, but making it a common standard because of that?

2. The market was not ready.

The market is ready for everything if you put enough marketing budget and afford in it to tell the people what they evar wanted.
The everage Joe Shmock stretches 3:4 programms to 16:9 just to fill his posh new plasma and has no problems that this results in horizontal egg heads. Do you think they notice framerates and deinterlacing problems?

3. Same with resolution and jumpy mcjump jump 24p movement.

Sure. I remember guys spending zillions on stereo equipment and speakers that produce frequencies only bats can hear. If you have problems with 24P in theathers you are to close to the screen or the screen is too big.

4. I would ask you to argue with the scientist and engineers and the marketing departments who are pushing the astronomical number of large format 1080p 120hz HDTV sets on us. They seem to have gotten your numbers all wrong.

It´s only the marketing departments. From a scientic standpoit the human eye is not able to tell SD from HD resolution at a distance 3-4 times the hight of the screen. 120hz HDTV sets turn every Hollywood darama into a cheap "making of", shot with a consumer tourist camcorder.

5. I hope you have nothing but 24p at 48 Hz or 78 Hz in your personal future!

That would be fine. I hope the industry would concentrate on better story telling than in higher resolutions and framerates. The later is easyer though.

Frank

 

[CherryTime]

Now I know why you're named "Postmaster".

 

[Postmaster]

hehehe

 

[Kholi]

I fail to see how anything said in the original post has anything to do with framerate choices.
But maybe I'm missing something.

Me too, man. I'm lost.

 

[Texanite]

I am actually not so much the torchbearers so much as the harbinger of things to come.

I am merely bringing you the news.

Okay newsman. Since you obviously know so much more than anybody else in this thread, why don't you tell us when the antiquated 24p will be gone?

I'd love to hear your prediction so I can come back on that date and mock you mercilously. Or maybe you can be really courageous and say something really generic like "it will happen in the future" or "10 to 20 years" pfft

You know, eventually all the nutters on the street corner with their "the end is near" signs will finally be right, but that doesn't mean they have some kind of unique insight. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

If you think this is going to happen in the next few years, step up to the plate and say it. If you want to blow smoke up your own ass with your rants about how you're so much better informed than anybody else on this forum and go on and on and on about something that could happen in the unforseen future, you might as well have started a thread about the end of automobiles as we know them because flying cars are coming.

 

[J.R. Hudson]

Hey guys, what about this James Cameron comment:
Cinema is not truth 24 times a second, it is lies 24 times a second.

I think that he gives a sh.. about 24p. He films in 3D for heaven's sake!

Whatever works, dude, whatever works.

That was De Palma.

"The cinema is truth 24 frames-per-second." - Jean-Luc Godard

"THE camera lies al the time. It lies 24 times a second." - Brian De palma

The only thing moronic about this thread is your comments.


You logic belies your utter lack of knowledge.

You are ignorant of the fact that the majority of exhibitors still have film projectors that are optimized for 24 frames a second. This is only changing now.

Also, as sweet as it is to think your 24p camcorder is the be all and end all. Here to fore they have not really been what Hollywood was looking for.

But I like your spunk! :beer:

Please keep any flames or insults out of the forum Este. Thank you.

It so cute you are adamant and defensive that 24p is G-d and there are no others.

Cute ?

Easy tiger.

 

[karapetkov]

Here's a crazy thought:


What about variable record\playback framerate? 24fps for most of the film and 48 for the pans, fast moving shots.

There probably be a jump in the *feel*, but... you get the idea.

EDIT: Newer cameras can be programmed to make a kind of ramp, for example - when doing a pan, you trigger the camera to start a gradual ramp from 24fps to 48fps and when the pan is almost over you trigger it again for a gradual return to 24fps. This trick is stored as metadata and is played back as normal motion with a smooth pan and not slo-mo. The player\projector will then read the metadata and perform the variable framerate when screening.

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

1. Artistic Choise

You can justify everything with that.
Why not shooting in super8 or vhs on used 20 year old tapes out of artistic reasons?
Fine in my book, but making it a common standard because of that?

...

You could and people do.

However, they are almost certainly to not become a standard due to their lack of what most find as a pleasing quality image. For special purposes they are still used. (Be Kind Rewind etc...)


I am saying that the consumer will demand and patronize works that all things being equal have more dynamic range, richer colors, greater resolution, and higher frame rates.


Your argument of taking giant steps back to make a standard are pure folly and obfuscation.


Also, I am certainly not saying that someone will be forcing a very specific standard on every film maker per se.


I am saying that the market will absolutely drive the average filmmaker to shoot in much higher frame rates etc... and that the exhibitors will display and present these works in their higher native formats.

...

2. The market was not ready.

The market is ready for everything if you put enough marketing budget and afford in it to tell the people what they evar wanted.
The everage Joe Shmock stretches 3:4 programms to 16:9 just to fill his posh new plasma and has no problems that this results in horizontal egg heads. Do you think they notice framerates and deinterlacing problems?

...

You are arguing against yourself.

You (and those in your camp) say that 24p is everything and the consumer will revolt because it's soap opera like.


I am telling you it is the exact polar opposite.


And yes, most consumers are dumb asses but they do indeed know a quality picture when they see it and they will crave the things I have mentioned.


The movie making machine will fall over itself to deliver it.

3. Same with resolution and jumpy mcjump jump 24p movement.

Sure. I remember guys spending zillions on stereo equipment and speakers that produce frequencies only bats can hear. If you have problems with 24P in theathers you are to close to the screen or the screen is too big.

...

Wow... just... wow....

Are you saying 30p pans are not smoother than 24p pans?

Same with fast motion across the frame?

Of course they are. That in fact is the crux of your argument!

4. I would ask you to argue with the scientist and engineers and the marketing departments who are pushing the astronomical number of large format 1080p 120hz HDTV sets on us. They seem to have gotten your numbers all wrong.

It´s only the marketing departments. From a scientic standpoit the human eye is not able to tell SD from HD resolution at a distance 3-4 times the hight of the screen. 120hz HDTV sets turn every Hollywood darama into a cheap "making of", shot with a consumer tourist camcorder.

...

I don't know.

I think there is so much variation on visual acuity we would have to see.

Sure there are averages but there is still such a great amount of variation in those averages it's stunning.

I have 20/40 vision uncorrected whereas my son remarkably and stunningly has 20/8. Go figure!?!?!



Bottom line is the market will in large part drive the art and this is most certainly so with Hollywood movies.

...

5. I hope you have nothing but 24p at 48 Hz or 78 Hz in your personal future!

That would be fine. I hope the industry would concentrate on better story telling than in higher resolutions and framerates. The later is easyer though.

Frank

Better storytelling is indeed the sine qua non!

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Me too, man. I'm lost.

Easy:

As framerate choices, resolution choices, Dynamic Range choices etc. all grow geometrically, there will be more and more filmmakers who choose higher framrates etc. because they love the various looks or they are looking to get a competitive advantage.


Simple.

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Okay newsman. Since you obviously know so much more than anybody else in this thread, why don't you tell us when the antiquated 24p will be gone?...

Hugs and kisses Tex.

I am telling you it is happening right now.

Most certainly with the huge push for digital exhibition and higher and higher end Home Theater Systems that have the capabilities to easily display these images.

...

I'd love to hear your prediction so I can come back on that date and mock you mercilously. Or maybe you can be really courageous and say something really generic like "it will happen in the future" or "10 to 20 years" pfft

....

Well even if I said in the next decade which I have, it is still orders of magnitude more accurate and refined than your "never gonna happen bubba. I'z nowz it."

As far as coming back to mock me. Your doing a damn fine job of that now so why bother to stop!

On the other hand you could always take the civil rout and just argue the merits of your argument.

Sup to you hoss. :beer:

...


You know, eventually all the nutters on the street corner with their "the end is near" signs will finally be right, but that doesn't mean they have some kind of unique insight. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.....

WOW... that's amazingly persuasive logic.... except not.

You are not very accurate in your thought or communication.

For instance, what if a clock is just set a minute slow and it runs three seconds slower than a calibrated atomic clock.

How many times each day will it be right?

You really think twice?!?!? rogar-BigGrin(DBG)


The funny thing is that it is the nutters who say that change will never occur are those that are almost certainly never right!

......
If you think this is going to happen in the next few years, step up to the plate and say it. If you want to blow smoke up your own ass with your rants about how you're so much better informed than anybody else on this forum and go on and on and on about something that could happen in the unforseen future, you might as well have started a thread about the end of automobiles as we know them because flying cars are coming.

Well... if you can't even bother to read the thread and consider what I am arguing (that is has most certainly been brewing but is starting in earnest now) we are at an impasse.

Just avoid the thread if it boggles your mind and boils your blood so!


Hugs and Kisses and All the Best to you Tejas! :beer:



.

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Here's a crazy thought:


What about variable record\playback framerate? 24fps for most of the film and 48 for the pans, fast moving shots.

There probably be a jump in the *feel*, but... you get the idea.

EDIT: Newer cameras can be programmed to make a kind of ramp, for example - when doing a pan, you trigger the camera to start a gradual ramp from 24fps to 48fps and when the pan is almost over you trigger it again for a gradual return to 24fps. This trick is stored as metadata and is played back as normal motion with a smooth pan and not slo-mo. The player\projector will then read the metadata and perform the variable framerate when screening.

Yep. I most certainly think so.

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

That was De Palma.

"The cinema is truth 24 frames-per-second." - Jean-Luc Godard

"THE camera lies al the time. It lies 24 times a second." - Brian De palma

...

Excellent!

....

Please keep any flames or insults out of the forum Este. Thank you.

...

I am quick to praise but I most certainly don't shy away from giving as much of what I get.

I absolutely am all for civility I would just ask that you are even handed and as judicious in your request with all involved.

....

Cute ?

...

Always! :beer:

....

Easy tiger.

Prrrrrr...... :beer:

 

[Luis Caffesse]

Alright, I deleted the last few posts.

If you guys want to debate framerates - that's fine.
But one more personal insult or comment from anyone is getting this thread shut down.

Come on guys, keep it civil.
Fair warning.

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Will do Luis.

I am just arguing my points.

I am stating what I believe is the obvious.

I am not married to 24p or any particular look.

I only know what I think looks good and what people tell me they think looks good.

With that said, I am most definitely saying the average Joe and Jane will be going for higher resolution, dynamic range, and most certainly frame rate!

 

[Aroon_Narayanan]

In my opinion, regardless of what the technology can do, I don't think moviegoers will buy into higher framerates. They'll like it for "specialty films" like 3D films, but for traditional cinema, people will prefer that "movie look" that is 24p. The average Joe and Jane don't know what frame rate or dynamic range are, they only know what a movie should "look" like.

 

[Ian-T]

Here's a crazy thought:


What about variable record\playback framerate? 24fps for most of the film and 48 for the pans, fast moving shots.

There probably be a jump in the *feel*, but... you get the idea.

EDIT: Newer cameras can be programmed to make a kind of ramp, for example - when doing a pan, you trigger the camera to start a gradual ramp from 24fps to 48fps and when the pan is almost over you trigger it again for a gradual return to 24fps. This trick is stored as metadata and is played back as normal motion with a smooth pan and not slo-mo. The player\projector will then read the metadata and perform the variable framerate when screening.

Man I think this is a cool idea. By the way, what camera does this? I would love a cam that will stay @ 24 fps and has the ability to ramp up when you choose it to.

 

[Luis Caffesse]

There are camera's that allow for ramping -
but the issue with what Karapetkov is talking about would be projection.
I know of no system that allows for ramping projection.

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

In my opinion, regardless of what the technology can do, I don't think moviegoers will buy into higher framerates. They'll like it for "specialty films" like 3D films, but for traditional cinema, people will prefer that "movie look" that is 24p. The average Joe and Jane don't know what frame rate or dynamic range are, they only know what a movie should "look" like.

Right.

That's because they have been aculturated and habituated to the 24p look.

I am merely arguing that this will indeed change with more potent mixes of ADR, Resolution, and Frame Rate etc...

 

[ESTEBEVERDE]

There are camera's that allow for ramping -
but the issue with what Karapetkov is talking about would be projection.
I know of no system that allows for ramping projection.

Right.


But, it should be doable and most probably will.


It would be great to see where the exhibitor R&D is at on this.


They are price sensitive but they also want scalability and as open of an upgrade path as possible.

 

[MichaelP]

24p is not only a digital format. 24p just means 24 frames per second where motion is captured progressively for each frame - like film. Frame rate is a choice - very simple, like using film, SD, HD, aspect ratio all creative choices.

I just saw RENT in the movie theater this past weekend. An example of alternative content. It was a recording of the broadway show. Very nicely done, well edited and for tried to recreate the experience of being there - even with 10 minute intermission. It was an interlace format - most likely 1080i. perhaps 720p/59.94 which may be a better choice since theatrical screens are progressive - interlace can have frame blending issues that reduce the perceived quality.

For now - 24p offers a better suspension of disbelief, where higher frame rates feel more like news and reality. Will that change over time? Maybe, maybe not. Storytellers will use they choose. 24p video for me still fails in shutter speed and motion, highlights, etc. give it away.

By the way, you don' t have to shoot film at 24fps... it's a pretty flexible analog format! ; )


Michael