170 hpx versus ex1

V

vocare

Well-known member
I am sure this have been a dilemma for many of us.
ex 1 have better quality footage in its price range.
Top of the range for prosumer.

170hpx is still the favor among dvx and hvx user.
p2 card are slower and more expensive than flash card.
are there any third party card for p2?
but its 5 year warrenty is a great bargain for all.

is anyone going for ex1 or hpx 170
accordingly to the retailer, the upgrade for ntsc will be $800sgd or about $600usd
is it worth it ?
 
I believe some of your statements are erroneous.

However, this subject has been beaten to death on these boards.

Do a search and you'll find several threads.

p2 cards are fast enough to record DVCProHD at 100 mbps.

Fuji is preparing to sell p2 cards

The HPX170 does have a five year warranty once registered.

HPX170 is not yet available, any questions about upgrades are premature.
 
Though it has been beaten into the ground, I find myself in the same dilema as the poster. The EX1 is the resolution king and makes it very attractive. The HPX170 has the panasonic color, gamas, and mojo. I found myself certain to be buying the EX1 by the end of the month, but now I am starting to sway toward the HPX170/HMC150. The reason is that I will be shooting a lot of events and weddings, and frankly I am afraid of heavy flashes ruining my footage. I am not worried about skew or wobble as most of my shots are set up, but flashes are my biggest conern. For me, this is how it breaks down(for me):

EX1 Pros: Resolution, color and image controls, longer recording times per GB
EX1 Cons: Rolling shutter(specifically flash for me), horrible ergonomics

HPX170 Pro: Awesome color, great ergonomics, Barry Greens materials included
HPX170 Cons: Harsher highlight handling, fewer image controls, less resolution, same bad LCD, P2 is still very expensive per minute compared to SxS

You absolutely cannot go wrong with either of these cameras, they are both outstanding. I guess you just have to decide which camera will work for you under most circumstances, but I haven't come to a conclusion yet (cause I am greedy and want it all :undecided) I would love to hear others opinions of what they will choose and why they will choose it. We all know that they are both great choices, so please, no wars just discussion.
 
Musician, why wouldn't you consider an HMC150 then? You'd get all the pros you listed of the 170 (well, you'd have to buy the book separately, but other than that...) and you'd avoid the cons of the EX1 you listed, and you'd also get way longer recording times per gigabyte than even the EX1, on way cheaper media. At half the price of the EX1.

As long as you don't need variable frame rates, it seems like you're an HMC150 customer...
 
Actually, I have been considering the HMC150 for awhile now. There are only two problems with this for me. One is that I love variable frame rates and the flexibility that would allow me to deliver a higher level of creativity to my clients. The second is that I edit in Vegas, and I am not confident in Vegas' ability to handle the footage at this stage. I am not sure if Cineform is capable of converting AVCHD to an intermediate yet, so until then, I am more focused on the EX1 and HPX170. Please let me know if I am missing something because if Cineform is an option, then the HMC150 is back on the table for me.
 
Vegas 8.0c can edit the files, but with inconsistent performance. Some of my files play back at full 23.976fps, and other files play back at 8fps, so that doesn't make a lot of sense. (note, this is a dual-core laptop @ 2.4ghz).

If you've upgraded to 8.0c, download some footage and try it and see what you get.
 
David, many people seem to have a little confusion with this too. A 16GB P2 card and a 16GB SxS card are in the same neighborhood in cost. But a 16GB SxS card holds an hour of 1080p footage using XDCAM(35mps), whereas a 16GB P2 card only holds 16 minutes of 1080p footage because of the higher data rate of DVCPROHD(100mbps). So if the cost is the same but the amount of footage held is nearly trippled with SxS, then I am getting more minutes of footage per dollar. In other words, if I am shooting 1080p and I want to continuously shoot 2 hours of footage, then I only need 2 16GB SxS cards on an EX1, but I would need almost 8 16GB P2 cards on the HPX170. Therefore, the P2 platform will cost me a lot more. But it also gives you the added color space which is important to many, and the camera is cheaper. But I am by no means in the Sony camp, I prefer the ergonomics of the 170, the color space, the gammas, and the general look of Panasonic. I guess you could say that I prefer Panasonic in every aspect other than resolution, and unfortunately that is very imprtant to me. I will undoubtedly get a Scarlet, but I need a camera today.
 
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What on earth does recorded megabytes have to do with anything? The p2 card is recording a slightly better color signal to be sure, but recorded megabytes?

By that logic, if I record a lossless PNG on one, and a larger mpeg2 file on the other, then the mpeg2 wins because it's bigger?

David S. said:
Hmmmm.

Could you provide example of how p2 is "very expensive" per minute compared to SxS?

Also taking into account a comparison between color space and mbps recorded
Click to expand...
 
DVCProHD records at 100 mbps in a 4:2:2 color space.

XDCAM runs at 35 mbps in a 4.2.0 color space I believe.

I was responding to the statement "P2 is still very expensive per minute compared to SxS . . . . "

Comparing minutes doesn't necessarily take into account the quality of video that is being recorded. I believe you know what I stated inartfully.
 
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OK Barry, if we ever meet I owe you a beer. The HMC150 is back on the table as an option for me. I upgraded to Vegas 8.0c and am now able to get a good look at the footage you have provided and it really looks nice. I still believe that the two top choices for me today are the EX1 and HPX170 because of the variable frame rates, but the HMC150 is something I could buy to use for a few months and then sell when Scarlet arrives.... hmmmmm.
 
TheMusician said:
. . . Though it has been beaten into the ground, I find myself in the same dilema as the poster. The EX1 is the resolution king and makes it very attractive . . .
Click to expand...

Not exactly for your situation, but definitely appropriate:
http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/awilt/story/whither_the_hvx200/


TheMusician said:
. . . I guess you could say that I prefer Panasonic in every aspect other than resolution, and unfortunately that is very imprtant to me . . .
Click to expand...

http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/awilt/story/how_important_is_resolution/
 
Thanks for the links DC, I have spent a large part of the day reading Adam Wilt reviews (he recently released one on the HPX170). Maybe it is because I started as an editor and am always just a 1-2 feet away from my monitor that I see the resolution differences. But maybe I should try standing back and viewing the way the rest of the world does. Thanks.
 
I too was in the ex 1 v HVX200 dilemma - i went with the HVX and have no regrets - i love the color and mojo of the images i pull off this camera

That beautiful deep color and cinegamma contrasty look is going to be the overwhelming percieved quality inducer in your audience.

The resolution and sharpness of the image is well down the list of priorities of perceived image quality - most viewers wouldnt know the difference between well lit SD and well lit ex 1 HD

Well lit SD still looks awesome. Some of my best footage comes off a 1 chip helmet cam used on the water on a cloudy golden diffused sunset - the light and colors just make the image look gorgeous

Also consider your edit system - the ex1 compressed codec requires alot more grunt to edit - while DVC PRO runs like butter - even on older systems! So if you want to hang on to your optimised edit station (with all your plug ins and settings just how you like them) then the Ex 1 can be a deal breaker.
 
Compare a blu ray disc to a SD DVD disc with same footage at three feet using a blu ray player to plasma.

Blu ray wins every time in sharpness and contrast.

Do it at ten feet and compare the blu ray to a quality upconverting SD DVD player and a SD DVD using the same downconverted HD footage.

My clients can't see a difference at 10 feet.

We've tested DVCProHD and EX1 footage in this way, and we decided to back off blu ray one off authoring until the encoders improve.

Surprisingly, the clients do see a difference when comparing HD DVD with a Toshiba A1 HD DVD set top. They love the HD DVD footage and see a difference at 10 feet over both SD and blu ray.

Sometimes the winners aren't the winners.
 
HPX170 vs EX1 dilemma - proposal for solution

I think what we all want to have is a (panasonic) camera which combines the benefits of both cameras into only one.

Here is my personal solution for this, maybe some folks of you will like it too.

First dilemma: In compare to the 170, the EX1 has got an awesome resolution (best sharpness)

Proposal for a easy going solution:
Use "ReSizer" (by digital anarchy) without scaling function. Set the quality button to "Best Sharp" and the smoothness button fix to the value 0.7. Sharpness you set to "O"! Now the important point: "Fine Tuning" you set in relationship to the individual scenes to the value "85%" till "100%".

And then you will experience a big surprise: ReSizer does this job without any additional noise, but the sharpness now is absorbing and really on the same level like the EX1/3.

(!): I tested the same procedia with photoshop CS3 "Unsharp masking" with 30%, but the achievement was really not good (double contures and much more noise), so "ReSizer" are my two cents.
ReSizer 2.0 (digital anarchy) http://www.digitalanarchy.com/resizer/main.html
is a plug in tool made to scale (particularly sd to hd) video.
You can use this plug in in FCP, AE and also in Motion.

(!): ReSizer actually doesn't exist anymore. But there is a follower application available from this company!

Edit:
I bought it to scale old 4:3 footage to 16:9. A good friend of mine and me made some tests 'cause we were - like you - a little unhappy about the limited resolution of the hvx.

After a while we checked out that this tool is a fantastic tool - not only primary for scaling - also secundary for sharping video without any scaling.
After done our tests we were very surprised about the high quality result.
As I said before: Best sharpness, no signifant additional noise - and no double contures IF you set the fine tuning individal for each scene. Also important and not as amazing as it sounds: The "Sharpness" has to be set to "0", because it is for the scaling job, NOT for sharping!

This job you do with the "Fine Tuning" button. My kolleg (friend) and me are absolut lucky with this solution. We still using our beloved HVX (and a little later HPX) but don't need to buy the Sony 'cause the better resolution. Try it and you will see. A big defizit of the pana doesn't matter anymore!


Second dilemma: The prices in relationship to the possible recording times of "P2" (P2 vs SxS)
>Especially in view to cams in the price range BELOW 10k-Dollars!!

My personal proposal of solution:
It seems to be the hmc150/151, but only in the first view. After watching the AVCHD-footage painstaking, I went to the resolution, that this will not be my new camera!

Not long time ago I detected the new and very small nanoFlash recorder/player from convergent design.

http://www.convergent-design.com/index.html

This fascinating little hardware tool really seems to be the solution for two big problems: It offers the use of cheap memory medium and in the same way it offers long and - payable - record times.

As an extra benefit you'll get with the nano the possibility to record with comparable record quality (4:2:2) and - if you want - even in BETTER quality as P2 enables!

Well, I am very suspensed if the nano will achieve what the manufacturer promise on his homepage ...

Best wishes

Jurgen
 
I'm glad to see DVXUSERS can still debate without another thread being closed :)

I love my EX-1's but can't wait to get my 170's...

I'm glad I could answer your questions.... :):)
 
... I'm glad to see DVXUSERS can still debate without another thread being closed :)

That's what is called "Multi Tasking" and yes, I am a MAN! ;-)
 
Isn't multi tasking the same has doing several things at once?

Hey, I can push a golf cart while drinking a beer and talking to my playing partners.

No biggie.
 
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