The end of 35mm adapers and hv20s....

The main complaints of 30p are coming from people who have never shot with it to any extent. It is so close to 24p that it takes some scrutiny to see a difference. Progressive vs. interlaced is the defining factor here, not a mere 6fps. There seems to be a cult like status that those 6fps equal 60i look. Hardly. You might see that pans are a little smoother, and uh, not much else.
Nikon chose 24p for the D90, because that was the max frame rate they could muster and keep the compression from destroying the image. Canon realizes that 24p is just not an ideal hand held shooting rate for the market they are pursuing. 24p demands stabilization. 30p isn't a lot better, but it is better. 60p will arrive when the encoders get to the right price/power/heat ratio.
I know lack of 24p is a hard sell in a DVX forum where most everyone got their start shooting 24pSD with dreams of a film conversion. With HDTV, DVD, digital projection and web distro all 30p friendly, is 24p still the ultimate geek feature? I mean, live a little, shoot some 30p and enjoy those slightly smoother pans, whooo.
 
funkydmunky said:
the main complaints of 30p are coming from people who have never shot with it to any extent. It is so close to 24p that it takes some scrutiny to see a difference. Progressive vs. Interlaced is the defining factor here, not a mere 6fps. There seems to be a cult like status that those 6fps equal 60i look. Hardly. You might see that pans are a little smoother, and uh, not much else.
Nikon chose 24p for the d90, because that was the max frame rate they could muster and keep the compression from destroying the image. Canon realizes that 24p is just not an ideal hand held shooting rate for the market they are pursuing. 24p demands stabilization. 30p isn't a lot better, but it is better. 60p will arrive when the encoders get to the right price/power/heat ratio.
I know lack of 24p is a hard sell in a dvx forum where most everyone got their start shooting 24psd with dreams of a film conversion. With hdtv, dvd, digital projection and web distro all 30p friendly, is 24p still the ultimate geek feature? I mean, live a little, shoot some 30p and enjoy those slightly smoother pans, whooo.
Click to expand...


A++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ :beer:
 
ESTEBEVERDE said:



I like your fighting spirit tiger!

Shoot, if you had even a little bit of knowledge you might even be mildly persuasive.

Nice college try all the same. :beer:


4:3 35 mm original silent film ratio, commonly known in TV and video as 4:3. Also standard ratio for MPEG-2 video compression.


1.37 35 mm full-screen sound film image, nearly universal in movies between 1932 and 1953. Officially adopted as the Academy ratio in 1932 by AMPAS. Still occasionally used. Also standard 16 mm.
Click to expand...

If your trying to humiliate the guy, why give him such a short list of film formats? There lots more you could have used to make your point and prove your superior knowledge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_film_formats
 
Chris_TC said:
This is total BS. 24fps vs. 25fps isn't that big a difference to begin with. And since the footage only gets sped up, none of the motion blur changes at all.
Click to expand...
Actually, having been in a PAL country, I can say from firsthand experience that movies look more videolike. It may be hard to believe, but it's easy to pick up on the difference in framerates.
 
I think that everyone can safely say that 30p and 24p look different. I think that, at least. To me, 24p is the far more pleasing framerate, and even if this is due to conditioning and repeated viewings of only that framerate, thats just how it stands. And since as of now 24p is the framerate that everyone wants, I feel that as a company marketing to a big consumer market putting it is is a very good idea. I wouldn't buy a camera without 24p at this point. 30p may be great for some, but to me as a filmmaker and as a viewer, it isn't cutting it. They may be very similar but I can immediatly spot the difference. I'm not going to point to any specifics, but 24p still looks much better to me, and I will continue to shoot on it.
 
Aroon_Narayanan said:
Actually, having been in a PAL country, I can say from firsthand experience that movies look more videolike. It may be hard to believe, but it's easy to pick up on the difference in framerates.
Click to expand...
Well, I happen to live in a PAL country, and the only way to discern between 24fps and 25fps is higher pitched audio.
24fps vs. 25fps (with the 25fps merely a sped-up version of the original) is not an issue. Native 24fps vs. native 30fps is.
 
if you retime video to make it look like film (with any package you like) you'll discover that when starting from 30p is much harder than from 25p

many hv20/30 users tried to get the pal version. because the ntsc at 30p would add interframes which are harder to remove (pulldown)

what i think might happen to 5dmk2 is that canon put a 30p recording just not to affect camcorder sales. we'll know more when we'll find out what controls are available for its video.
30p is in the consumer realm. automatic shutter it has also is consumer market. and that's all we know so far
 
Aroon_Narayanan said:
Actually, having been in a PAL country, I can say from firsthand experience that movies look more videolike. It may be hard to believe, but it's easy to pick up on the difference in framerates.
Click to expand...
I guess that means you went to the movies after going to the Oktoberfest first?:beer:

Seriously, there is no visual distinction beween 24p and 25p, the only reason to shoot 24p for us PALlanders is flawless film transfer, but even there the 1 fps more is neglegtible...

And let me reasure you guys, movies don´t look different here (well the Dogm95 films look videoish...:cheesy:)
 
booggerg2 said:
Shows how much exposure you have gotten. If you go to a PAL country, 24fps films converted to PAL will have a smooth, video-like look. If people there are used to this cadence, it's not a far fetch that it could catch on once people get used to that look.
Click to expand...

Nonsense.
 
rawfa said:
Looks really nice :( Why nikon?! WHY?! Why didn't you do things right and gave us this darn jello mess?! It' could have been something special...
Click to expand...


Don't sweat it.


This is just their opening volley.


Wait until they release their higher end gear.


For the price the D90 is exceptional.
 
Car3o said:
You newbies just coming to the thread are just gonna have to suck it up and read.
Click to expand...

stoiqa said:
read and learn ...eh
Click to expand...



 Hi all!

 My fellow Newbies (and a few senior members, for that matter..) if you don’t much feel like reading the whole thread – you’re missing a lot. Not only the great info on d90 itself but also a good practice in script writing! And I kid you not – trying to catch up with this runaway train, I read this whole amazing thread - and did so solely while driving an 18-wheeler… :D
 See, I couldn’t stop reading and I couldn’t stop driving (as this lets me buy gear..)



 Took me a few days (and nights – as a matter of fact, many times it got me driving all thru the night up to 8 am at which point I would finally park the truck and… read for another hour :crybaby:


 A lil’ hard on the eyes but so good on the brains..


 So I could say I literally drove (some 5k miles) on the shoulders of those good people who started the thread (hunter richards) and put up their money, time, patience, experience and readiness to share, with blistered hands and match-propped eyelids to uncover this baby! (Kholi, Zak, Stoiqa, Drew, Joe, etc. as well as Ryan P.O’H. for continued total identification :thumbup: with the former ones, Car3o and Lee for neverending support and sarcasm :beer:– HUGE THANKS!!!).


It was a pleasure – kinda’ like reading a script for a great series – it had all the drama: there was the revelation, mystery, suspense, revealing, twists, role reversals and discoveries, good guys and the bad (some convincing acting there guys):)


hell! – there even is a “CHASE SEQUENCE” :shocked:


 And it evoked all the necessary emotions: from expectations and hope, speculation (albeit a bit dragging here sometimes, may I say?), heated debates, joy or even euphoria, frustration and anger to insomniac loony humor to… impatience, bitching, demands, “bluntness” (and tripods going (up) places..;) to satisfaction, reconciliation and joyful prospects for the future – it is all there!

 So it’s really really WORTH reading from start to end.



 NOW - THANKS TO YOU GOOD (AND BAD) PEOPLE - I KNOW THIS LITTLE THING WILL (WITH CARE AND PLAN) DO GREAT THINGS!

Buying one for sure!



 Pheeeew! :huh: long one..

 So now on to my question:




 D90’s 24p + HV20’s 25P on one timeline (e.g. in avid liquid 7.2) = no can do, eh?

 Lee, Norbert, bearing, rawfa and other pal guys ?



 Cheers :)





 P.S. Like Ryan said – keep on truckin’ – well, in a way

 P.P.S. Beware of a swerving red Volvo semi anywhere between L.A. and chicago :Drogar-Smoke(DBG):
 
I agree..It has been like a soap opera reading these threads.
Maybe we should make a film about it?(now will we shoot it 30p 25p 24p 23.976..lol).

Seriously though I pick my camera up in 2 hours..I sold my adapter because its too much hassle for what I do(short docs for councils etc)..all I see this as, is another great tool to stick in my bag with my ex1 (Like someone gave me a digital 16mm cine camera)...just dont film whilst on a pogo stick or using a hammer action drill.

ITS ABOUT EXPLOITING ITS STRENGTHS NOT ITS WEAKNESSES.
 
RE HDMI capture. This is getting ridiculous. Near as I can tell after 262 pages, no one has actually done the hdmi grab.

I got the c>a hdmi cable halfway through the week, but have been expecting someone would have covered it by now. I guess the combination of that cable, a d90, and hdmi capture card is one of those unique combinations right now :)

I am newly hopeful given the d300 grab someone posted a link to in the middle here somewhere, that there is some hope and its worth testing. Even that review said "its compressed", but presuming it means for the web output, not as in it came off the d300 compressed? Anyone?
Depending on if its 720 upscaled or 1080i, I guess depends on how useful the crop is going to be given the overlays.

The sensor in this camera is similar to the RED and is doing amazing lowlight things in all my tests. I even busted it onto a figrig (steering wheel) with a small Litepanel LED light and a 7" HD battery monitor and took it for a spin... :) Not quite like on my flyer, but sure beat handheld, and 7" via hdmi was nicer than 3" for sure for focus.

Heck, I'll bust out my mac pro for hdmi>cineform - onto shoots using my generator, ups and a long cable, if it means I am getting RED like footage in cineform in 35mm, shallow DOF in no light from a $1k camera.

:) OK maybe thats overboard... :) If its that good I'll investigate the macbook pro setups or funky hdmi capture homebrew rigs....

But after the recent finds in controlling shutterspeed and iso here, and with my 50-300 f4.5 on the way (with nice big manual zoom and focus rings) (hey, not saying its replacing my case of nikon primes, but for a single lens, not bad, might chuck a faster 50 and my f1.4 85mm in there for lower light :) - I really want to put this compression thing to bed.

Not just for this unit, but to get an idea of what the next models might hold. Canon are almost combining my d700 and d90 in one unit with the MKII. Nikon will probably have to answer that at some point, and if they can do something about compression and rolling shutter, it just keeps getting better :)



My jvc gyhd200 I'm sure will get nice uncompressed, but by the time the dof adapter is on it, you are really loosing a lot of light, and this d90 is in another class there...

I agree with most sensible people here, its not replacing red, its not replacing dof HDV, its a new set of strengths unheard of in a package that size and weight. and working around the negatives for now, its a handy bit of kit.

(take the call I had the other day for advice on a sub $1k camera for shooting rock interview documentary and show stuff from a film student). Ummm, can you say, get to learn 35mm, film techniques, hand held so not obtrusive, plus LOW LIGHT, (had no lighting budget) etc...
After I tested the low light a few nights ago, had my answer.

Who says this thing doesnt have a niche? :)


SO. Enough ramble.. I am appreciative so much of all the testing the people on this forum have provided so far on this unit, that I have ordered a Blackmagic HDMI Intensity Pro and some raid for my mac pro just now. It's the weekend, but they'll arrive on Tuesday.

If there is any missing information so far about overlays etc, I have 2-3 different hdmi capable monitor, lcd, plasma etc here, but I think those questions have all been answered.

I also have a DSClabs Camalign HD12+4 test chart.

So, Essential tests? What would people like to see first?

Cheers.
 
Last edited:
If I remember ...the only HDMI test was done by kholi on his TV...couple of days ago i was thinking at the same thing....no one tried to capture this baby on Blackmagic card..and see what`s up with that.

Let us know your results.



dariomik, I was thinking to get the thread "printed" ...just the way it is.

I would say, get an agreement between top 10 members that posted on this thread...contact a publisher...and you have your bestseller.(it was/is a fun ride:)

"D90 Hopes and Dreams" in stores December 1st 2008
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top