HMC150 questions answered...

For those of you who want to see the noise "in motion", here's a DV .avi file, an extraction of the shots above. This is maximum-noise 60i/12dB vs. 60p/18dB, after being downconverted to SD.

http://www.dreamoncreative.com/~dvxuser/DVXvsHMC150-Noise.avi

Obviously if we were comparing the 0dB files the noise would be even less. This is just an extreme torture test for the HMC150 to put it at a full 18dB of gain, and this is what the results look like after rendering to a standard-def DV .avi file.
 
What's interesting to me is that, to my eye, the DVX is sharper in the 0dB gain pics, and the HMC is sharper in the high-gain pics. Does anyone else see it this way? Might be some insight into how the noise-reduction is working...
 
It's not fair to judge sharpness because they're not at equivalent image sizes. If the 150 had been zoomed in to be the same size it should be quite a bit sharper.

If you're comparing sharpness between the DVX to DVX, or between the 150 to 150, then yeah, that'd be fair. But you can't compare between the DVX and 150 and say the DVX is sharper because it's more optically magnified and therefore has an advantage.
 
BobDiaz said:
Also, could you post a 720/30p file?
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I haven't shot anything at 30P yet, so I won't have any interesting clips. I could maybe stick it out the front door and shoot the neighbor's house, but would that suffice? What are you looking for in a 30P clip?

My time with the review unit is about over, so any last requests need to be made now.
 
When I first read about this camera it didn't seem like such a big deal especially how Panasonic portrayed it. After looking at Barry's demos and comments I've come to the conclusion that duh- this is the next dvx 100 in hd. I think this camera is going to be a huge hit and is going to appeal to a much larger customer base than Panasonic anticapated. While the post production will need some refinement from different NLE's, I think the workflow makes a hell of alot more sense than P2 or sxs. Inexpensive tapeless workflow is the future in my opinion. I see the HMC-150 taking customers away from the HVX 200, 170, Sony EX, and the rest of HDV cameras. Panasonic touts it as being the next DV for HD but I see it as being so much bigger and better than that. If Panasonic and Sony don't drastically drop the prices on P2 and sxs I see those products being left in the dust..
 
On a side note about converting AVCHD files...

I downloaded the AVCHD to HQ converter from the Canopus website and it is very fast.

I selected all ten clips Barry posted at once and converted them in about two minutes to Canopus HQ format using a Quad-core 9450.

HQ files are large, but they look great and are easy to edit with.
 
Barry_Green said:
I haven't shot anything at 30P yet, so I won't have any interesting clips. I could maybe stick it out the front door and shoot the neighbor's house, but would that suffice? What are you looking for in a 30P clip?

My time with the review unit is about over, so any last requests need to be made now.
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First I'd like to see a 7020/24p, 720/30p, 720/60p of the exact same shot. It does not need to be that exciting, cars driving down a busy street will do. As long as the shots are all the same. (OK, I know the cars are going to change.)

If that's too big a pain, then I'll take almost any 720/30p shots you can do. Any outdoor shot with movement will do....


Thanks,

Bob Diaz
 
In Barry's Detail+7 shot, this is a still image of part of the frame. Remember that to get the same effect of looking at a 60" HDTV, you need to move back about 3.5 feet from the computer monitor.

Picture2-2.png



IF we do a 2x zoom on the image, it still seems to hold up very well. Again, just move back to 3.5 feet and take a look.

Picture1-1.png



Very impressive, even when I push the image beyond normal limits...


Bob Diaz
 
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Zipping the files seems to be the way to go - thanks Barry! I can now easily transfer your shots into Apple ProRes. The result looks very promising!

Could you please upload a shot with detail set to zero (or edge enhancement turned off)? I would prefer to do sharpening in the post.
 
Sticking it out of the frontdoor to shoot 30p would suffice for me Barry,if possible I would like to see 30p. Thanks again for your efforts.
 
This last week has been so informative and has sold me on this camera and I am sure there are more good things coming for AVCHD in the future....3500 for this camera is a bargain in my books. I think this camera will be like the VX1000 and DVX and we will all look back in 6-7 years time and see that the 150 is a great camera that changed AVCHD forever.... just a though :)
 
BobDiaz said:
First I'd like to see a 7020/24p, 720/30p, 720/60p of the exact same shot. It does not need to be that exciting, cars driving down a busy street will do. As long as the shots are all the same. (OK, I know the cars are going to change.)

If that's too big a pain, then I'll take almost any 720/30p shots you can do. Any outdoor shot with movement will do....
Click to expand...

Panning shots following moving cars/car drivebys would be very useful to see! Let's try to break this thing!!! :Drogar-Love(DBG):

avenue said:
This last week has been so informative and has sold me on this camera and I am sure there are more good things coming for AVCHD in the future....3500 for this camera is a bargain in my books. I think this camera will be like the VX1000 and DVX and we will all look back in 6-7 years time and see that the 150 is a great camera that changed AVCHD forever.... just a though :)
Click to expand...

I'm starting to feel a little sentimental too... Barry thank you so much for all your efforts. Simply amazing. You have circumvented any buyer's remorse for me (my 150 was pre-ordered several days before you started this review).
 
shrigg said:
Panning shots following moving cars/car drivebys would be very useful to see! Let's try to break this thing!!! :Drogar-Love(DBG):
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It'd take a lot more than that to break it. I'm somewhat expert on breaking long-GOP codecs, because I have a computer-programmer background and have a pretty good idea of what would push it over the edge and what wouldn't.

Long-GOP codecs are designed to deal with typical motion, so a moving car presents very little challenge to it. What blows up a long-gop codec is something like rapid and constant color changes or brightness changes, or unpredictable motion (such as splashing water or raining confetti or billowing smoke/fog). A bumpin' and thumpin' nightclub with strobelights and smoke and flashes would usually do a pretty thorough number on a long-GOP codec, but the real killer is color changes (especially sweeping color changes that take 1/4 or 1/2 second to complete) -- in cases like that, EVERY PIXEL on the screen changes, and long-GOPs puke on that. That's why my "torture test" for long-GOP codecs is the "Sirens of T.I." show in Las Vegas -- it's set on boats floating on rippling water, and it features tons of explosions, flashes, strobelights, billowing smoke, spraying/splashing water, colored lighting, and - on top of all that - I shoot it handheld. That show utterly destroyed all forms of HDV that I threw at it. XDCAM-EX in 24P mode was surprisingly resilient; it did fall apart in 1080/60i but not as bad as HDV did. So that would be the place to test a 150, to see just how good this codec is (or isn't). I would be surprised if it didn't perform at least as well as XDCAM-EX, but we won't know until it's tested in the "torture chamber".
 
Barry_Green said:
Most of my shots are at detail 0. In that last zip, the second file is detail 0, but with DRS set to 1.
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I thougt you were referring to the first clip when you commented the second one. I heard you saying „Detail at +7“ in the first one, and „same scene DRS set to one“ in the second clip. Sorry for that and thank you for making so much effort.
 
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Barry_Green said:
It's raining torrentially today, so I'll have to see if there's a window of opportunity to do so.
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Rain? I live in Southern California, we don't know what that word means... :laugh:

If it looks like the rain won't let up, you could always point the camera out the front or back door at some trees or bushes with the rain coming down. Might even be a good test for the AVCHD Codec to deal with all that movement from the rain.

Bob Diaz
 
mrcodec said:
I thougt you were referring to the first clip when you commented the second one. I heard you saying „Detail at +7“ in the first one, and „same scene DRS set to one“ in the second clip. Sorry for that and thank you for making so much effort.
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Ah, yes, I can see the confusion. No, the two clips do not refer to each other (I think their numbers are like 27 and 32, right?) There were several scenes in-between. That 2nd clip is referring to a prior clip which is all zeroes on the scene file, and DRS OFF. So I then said "now this is the same as the prior, but with DRS at 1."
 
BobDiaz said:
Rain? I live in Southern California, we don't know what that word means... :laugh:
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I'm in Hurricane Alley, so yeah, the storm is rather vigorous right now.

It looked for about 10 minutes like it was done, but now the thunder is rolling and the rain is storming down. So if you want 720: 24/30/60p of rainy bushes, that can be arranged. :)
 
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