Tom Marshall
Actor!!!!!!
See what you started?
That's strike 2 against you. One more and you enter the douchebag hall of fame.
Making a New Feature... What Do You Want To See?
- Thread starter Zak Forsman
- Start date
See what you started?
That's strike 2 against you. One more and you enter the douchebag hall of fame.
Off Zak's observation - yes, to be anything more than a stab at titillation, nudity has to be 'earned.'
I have seen basically full-everything just-about-x-rated simulated sex in films where the characters are hardly developed at all, and it's a yawn. I have seen scenes where the nudity was really very restrained - sometimes even only implied - but the characters were compelling and the story led to a place where the scene was very real-feeling and its erotic effect was really something powerful. And some that fall in between.
I have seen basically full-everything just-about-x-rated simulated sex in films where the characters are hardly developed at all, and it's a yawn. I have seen scenes where the nudity was really very restrained - sometimes even only implied - but the characters were compelling and the story led to a place where the scene was very real-feeling and its erotic effect was really something powerful. And some that fall in between.
Capt Quirk
Veteran
Tommy... you shouldn't be posting stuff like that. Now you have me wondering if it is one strike per boob or what?
Tom Marshall
Actor!!!!!!
Capt... you have mail! 
Drew Ott
Wish I were banned.
Would you give an example of a film where the nudity is "earned"? I think I know what you mean, but I can't think of a film where this is the case.
Brandon Rice
Distributed Producer
Though I have personal convictions against having nudity in my own films... one film I felt had appropriate nudity was Munich.
Capt Quirk
Veteran
Schindler's List?
David W. Richardson
Chapelgrove Films
In that drawing scene, Kate Winslet's breasts were quite clearly shown as we looked over Leo's shoulder while he sketched her.
David W. Richardson
Chapelgrove Films
Now give an example where the nudity was necessary. Movies have been made about Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden and Lady Godiva -- movies which didn't need onscreen nudity even with those stories. The argument could be made about the 'artistry', but that's a 'beauty in the eye of the beholder' situation.
Zak Forsman
Major Contributor
to begin, the nudity would be intrinsic to the character, the story and not "removable" from the scene without fundamentally changing it. in other words, non-exploitive. but certainly that enters a field where each person in the audience draws the line in a different place. some would consider the nudity in Schindler's List unnecessary. and it COULD have been done without it, but the nudity was earned because it was truthful.
a good way to test your barometer on this is with Spike Lee's "Girl 6". terrible movie, but there is a scene where the main character, who is an aspiring actor, auditions for Quentin Tarantino (in a cameo) and is asked to bare her breasts for the casting team to evaluate. She does it in close-up. And we feel her pain at being so vulnerable and exposed. But then we cut to a wider shot and we as viewers are also shown her naked breasts by the filmmaker. So what's happening here? Is the nudity necessary? No. The emotion of the scene was there before we cut to the wider shot. But was it earned? I don't know. and that answer will be different for everyone. Spike Lee certainly felt like he earned it, I'm sure.
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Nathyn
Low Budget Ninja
Unfaithful. I don't remember any real nudity but I know there were some steamy scenes. I think the "sex scene" has become a staple of B films as a lot of A films seem to stay away as they aim for the PG-13 audience. But I have to say Unfaithful had the best use of a sex scene; showing the pleasure and the guilt of an extramarital affair. I had never seen anyone do it in this way before then. And the scene could've been used for titillation but I would argue that as sexy as it was it wasn't very sexy at all because the story it told.
Not very often you see a Hollywood film portray an extramarital affair as anything but "yea it happens, get over it" occurrence or "romantic". Personally I have no problem with nudity or sex in a film depending on the story it's telling. Unfaithful is a great example of how sex can be used and if the scenes were taken out it the film wouldn't be as strong.
I guess a good question is if the scene is taken out would it hurt the film. I find in many cases if the sex scene is taken out it would make the film better. Many times sex scenes and nudity just pop up and have very little to do with the over all plot of the film and it rarely affects any thing. Sometimes it's artistic and done well, which I have no problem with but I think it becomes very obvious when it's just there for titillation. Although I do have my own issues with Hollywood's use of sex for social engineering and propaganda but that's a different story.
Yes, I'm in agreement with this. I love the process. I want to see more of it.
-Nate
Not very often you see a Hollywood film portray an extramarital affair as anything but "yea it happens, get over it" occurrence or "romantic". Personally I have no problem with nudity or sex in a film depending on the story it's telling. Unfaithful is a great example of how sex can be used and if the scenes were taken out it the film wouldn't be as strong.
I guess a good question is if the scene is taken out would it hurt the film. I find in many cases if the sex scene is taken out it would make the film better. Many times sex scenes and nudity just pop up and have very little to do with the over all plot of the film and it rarely affects any thing. Sometimes it's artistic and done well, which I have no problem with but I think it becomes very obvious when it's just there for titillation. Although I do have my own issues with Hollywood's use of sex for social engineering and propaganda but that's a different story.
Yes, I'm in agreement with this. I love the process. I want to see more of it.
-Nate
Okay. I would describe that as perfectly appropriate nudity, given the context granted by the scene in which it appears.
I don't believe that any given choice or any given shot within any given film can be described as necessary, since one can always find an option or options, in terms of what to show and how to put it together. It also seems to me that by reducing nudity to something that must only be seen when "necessary," we would be intrinsically labeling nudity as a bad or undesirable thing, to be avoided as much as possible - which impresses me as a terribly immature perspective. On the other hand, words like "suitable" or "appropriate" or "effective" don't carry the same quasi-moral baggage as "necessary," so hopefully you'll indulge me if I use those words, instead...
The Name of the Rose
Planet of the Apes (1968)
The Emerald Forest
Bound
The Little Girl Who Lives Down the Lane
Ararat
Rome
The Terminator
Robocop
Starship Troopers
A Girl Named Sooner
Titanic (seeing as you reminded me)
Hair
Queen Margot
The Fifth Element
Outland
There are probably others; this is an off-the-top-of-the-head listing.
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David W. Richardson
Chapelgrove Films
All I'm saying is that nudity is never, in my opinion, required in order to tell a story. Any story. By and large, the purpose it serves as far as Hollywood is concerned is to sell tickets -- which is a marketing decision, not an artistic one.
Every movie you listed would be absolutely just as good, just as entertaining, without on-screen nudity. Many of them have aired on broadcast TV, with the nudity removed or cropped, and were none the less for it.
And that is the basis for my statement that nudity is never necessary. That's my opinion. It's also the opinion of quite a large number of people I know. These people are tired of having to endure nudity just to watch an otherwise enjoyable movie. And they are becoming less and less willing to make that sacrifice. As a filmmaker, I am sensitive to that audience concern.
I kind of feel sorry for someone whose moral/ethical framework requires that merely seeing an unclothed human body, be regarded as something that must be "endured."
But I imagine it's probably part of a larger ethical structure which is seen to offer some compensatory benefits.
But I imagine it's probably part of a larger ethical structure which is seen to offer some compensatory benefits.
Jared Meyer
Veteran
Listen, I like boobs. Everyone does. That's just the way it is. Boobs are very likeable.
But something I've become very attentive to lately is the way that something, like the playful banter here, is endured by the women in my life. from my girlfriend to the women I collaborate with on a creative level. I see it much more clearly now, having been rocked by some recent events. But there is an ugly feeling out there amongst women that stems from an accepted and unrelenting focus on their sexuality. and there is even an unease with men developing out of the increasingly mainstream acceptance of torture porn (take a look at the Last Hour on the Left thread). what would you think if a new audience of women were enthusiastically devouring a popular form of entertainment written and directed by women about sexually mutilating and torturing and killing men?
The disparity lies here... I have tried to get the female filmmakers I work with to post here, but they don't. and their reason is always the same. They checked out the site and came across something like the stuff in this thread. You'll notice the small minority of women who DO post here either ignore and endure that stuff. or they ride the wave of attention for a little while by feeding into it, and all the guys get excited because she feeds into the fantasy of a girl being hyperenthusiastic about her sexuality. then suddenly she stops posting one day. maybe nothing specific happened, but I imagine the buzz from the attention wore off and the accumulative effect and focus on her as an object of desire finally hit a threshold.
Anyway, this film we're making is an honest attempt to go deeper than the surface. to explore an authentic relationship between a man and a woman. and the hope is to share EVERYTHING about the production with you. all we ask is if you like what you're seeing, share it with someone. and please be mindful that two of five creative minds working on this picture are women who are already hesitant about appearing in videos posted here.
ps - for the record, i didn't ask Luis to step in and say anything. but the ladies on this production are glad he did.
Well said Zak. This is a great post and I wish these sentiments were more mainstream. I'm getting really excited about this project.
...
I have to laugh every time someone bemoans the lack of female dvxusers. Not that this forum is rife with sexual harassment but there are enough threads that serve to demonstrate why a woman would be less than eager to broadcast her gender. Heck, if for no other reason than that suddenly the next ten posts are guaranteed to be: "Wow, I had no idea there were any women here!" "A woman who loves film? Marry me!"
It does seem a stretch but I've seen it happen constantly, here and everywhere else on the internet. Especially on geek sites like this one, the mere identification of a poster as female whether through her avatar or some self-reference is often enough to derail the whole conversation.
Huh. That's weird. And unfortunate.
Capt Quirk
Veteran
Just look at the thread started by Scratchnpatch, where she started with "I'm a girl". Within a day, there was 3 pages of guys jumping in. Not saying they were trying to pick her up, but I'm sure there were a few hoping. On the Net, it seems like the phrase "I'm a girl"="C'mon in boys, the bar is open!" Being old and married, I am almost immune to this, However, I still like to flirt, and still really like boobs. So sue me
Just kidding about suing me of course
False invitation-to-sue? On the phone with my attorney right now, pal.
I can at least understand uninvited/unrequited interest in a woman in real life, face-to-face, even if I disapprove of doing anything that would make her uncomfortable, in relation to it.
Being an obnoxious wannabe-pickup artist on a screen showing nothing but text messages, impresses me as desperately weird. Or weirdly desperate. Either way.
I can at least understand uninvited/unrequited interest in a woman in real life, face-to-face, even if I disapprove of doing anything that would make her uncomfortable, in relation to it.
Being an obnoxious wannabe-pickup artist on a screen showing nothing but text messages, impresses me as desperately weird. Or weirdly desperate. Either way.
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Capt Quirk
Veteran
It's ok Max, Karma has a way of working things out. Half the women they "chat" with online, probably aren't really women
That depends upon the function served by the display of nudity, in the particular films. Each of the examples offered, was offered with the effects of the nudity upon the presentation of the characters, and the tone of the story, in mind. And the nudity did have effect; by deleting it you would indeed be "telling the same story" in terms of act structure and most of the action; you would not be communicating the identical emotion or information, without the specific nude scenes cited.
If you approach nudity out-of-the-gate as a bad thing to be avoided, then it will likely never be possible for you to perceive any artistic or communicative value to it, regardless of its employment: blanket conclusions that ignore any specificity don't allow much room for intellectual flexibility.
I expect that you could delete a great deal besides nudity, if your goal is to strip a given film down to the bare minumum (no pun intended) required to get the basic story idea across. Heck, you could probably get most feature films down to a running time of about 10-15 minutes, if you were to strip out everything but the barest material required to get the plot across.
If there is a specific emotional effect or story point that the creator feels is best communicated with some scene involving nudity, that's no different than a specific effect sought through dialog, lighting, composition, dressing or wardrobe. You can communicate the same broad outlines of the scene without it, but you may find very different effects, in including it.
I'm both curious and reluctant to ask what underwrites this opinion. It seems to proceed from a belief that the sight of a bare body is in and of itself a bad and terrible thing to be avoided like poison, which is a very odd attitude considering that we all occupy bodies, we all spend some time in them naked, and have most likely seen other naked members of our species, without having suffered any discernable ill effects.
Again, "endure" suggests some weird kind of horror at the idea of maybe seeing naked skin. What are these viewers afraid of? Do they hang sheets over the mirrors, when they take a shower...? Do they hang a sheet-with-a-hole-in-it down the center of their beds, on their wedding nights...?
I think it entirely appropriate that a segment of the audience that is phobic over seeing a nude body, should have a segment of filmmakers dedicated to supplying entertainment in which the sight of nudity is something of which they don't have to live in fear. Finding an exploitable niche can be the very essence of commercial success.
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