lawriejaffa
Veteran
haha apolages Daryl i was just teasing not really critising the guy! 
Leaning towards the EX1
- Thread starter Film it
- Start date
adamr316
Well-known member
Essentially solid state costs have dropped significantly over the years. Just like it used to cost close to $1,000 for a terrabyte external drive you can now get one for $300 or less. You can buy 8GB thumb drives for less than $50 (my 4GB one from 2006 cost $80.00) and that's just it. New tech = expensive and as things improve R&D costs are paid for, competitors come in and stuff just gets cheaper to manufacture.
That's pretty much like how we can shoot HD footage that can interchange with higher end HD cameras now and we couldn't do this just a few years ago.
The reason they're still expensive is two-fold:
#1. These cards need fast write speeds and need to be more reliable than memory cards for digital cameras. The quality control is/needs to be stricter.
#2. Probably the biggest reason is that the cards are only made by one manufacturer. Panasonic makes P2 and Sony makes SxS. SanDisk was supposed to be making SxS by now but what happened there? With no competition companies can charge whatever they think they can get away with.
ColorBalance
Active member
But at least Sony is giving away 2 8GB cards for free. That's about 70 minutes of highest quality recording. Enough for many, especially, if they can backup on, say, a notebook and reuse the cards.
Daryl Auguste
Well-known member
haha apolages Daryl i was just teasing not really critising the guy!
Haha its no problem, just came off as a little rough.
Edit: Oh and adam316, I believe Sandisk has come out with 8GB and 16GB SxS cards, however they aren't priced very competitivly. Actually, Sony SxS cards cost less on BH then Sandisk.
PerroneFord
Deals in Lead
I gotta tell you, it was a BIG incentive for me. The ability to record nearly an hour of footage for free essentially closed the gap in retail prices between the cameras for me. My interviews and other things won't last more than 45 minutes or so. And my long form corporate stuff will be going to the firestore at HDV levels.
I "really" wanted to get my hands on an HPX, but I was out of time. I know that Panasonic is married to the P2 technology, and I wonder if they will stay with it going forward or if they will move to other technology. The "other solid state media won't cut it" argument just doesn't fly with RED writing 4k to compact flash. What is Epic going to use to write 5k files?
We all know that Sony and Panasonic are trying to make money on the card sales as well as the cameras. Whatever. Solid state isn't that expensive to do. Sandisk's best CompactFlash card is $300 for 16GB. That's 1/5 what P2 or SxS is. 8GB is $163 compared to my $899 for an SxS. Almost 1/6th.
Buck Forester
Well-known member
Barry, duuuude, just because Sony uses quotes from the "industry standard" doesn't make it evil. Lighten up. No one's talking about a death knell for P2, geez, they're just talking about the "latest greatest" industry standard. This is not a "Sony" issue, it's an industry standard issue.
Check this out: http://www.pcmcia.com/about.htm
-------------------------------
PCMCIA (Personal Computer Memory Card International Association) is an international standards body and trade association with over 100 member companies that was founded in 1989 to establish standards for Integrated Circuit cards and to promote interchangeability among mobile computers where ruggedness, low power, and small size were critical.
Today, PCMCIA is continuing to develop and promote the ExpressCard Standard, the standard for hot swappable systems and modules that dramatically improves the I/O performance of both desktop and notebook computers by supporting both the PCI Express and Universal Serial Bus (USB) 2.0 standard. The ExpressCard Standard is designed to deliver high-performance, modular expansion to both desktop and notebook computers at a lower cost and in a smaller form factor.
At roughly half the size and lighter than PC Card, ExpressCard products also leverage the proven advantages of PC Card technology, including reliability, durability and expansion flexibility while offering improved performance.
------------------------------------
Where in the heck does PCMCIA promote Sony? It's an international organization with 100 members. Of course Sony, if they use the latest standards, is gonna promote that on their brochures. Duh. What, are they gonna say, "with this new product you will use the old standards, blah blah blah" to sell their latest stuff? P2 is fine, don't stress or get defensive, but the SxS is based on the latest industry standard Express Card technology. Which is, hello, an obvious thing to tout while marketing a technology related product. Not sure why your feathers are all ruffled over that fact. You're still a great guy and Panasonic is a FINE company indeed and P2 is good. I like ice-cream.
Here's the link. The host is shot against green screen. The rest is real life
http://hawaiigoesfishing.com/videos/hgf_103_ulua.mov
BTW, all shots have been corrected and graded using Apple's Color software.
lawriejaffa
Veteran
Damn you Buck! I cannot hope to spell extraordinaire bugger - that can't be right!
Look i think most posts are fanboyish here... the facts DO NOT MATTER do they?
Has anyone bought anything which they enjoyed and then slandered because of numerical spec comparisons on an anonymous computer forum.
There are incorrect statements made all the time about both cams... i think it is a bit of a joke (given the Sony solid state is limited to its prosumer model) to describe it a real alternative to P2 - which is on all pannies industry cams and according to the % number quote, has 80% use (in the market Barry quoted.)
Who knows though what the future can hold. But for us with cams under 10$k talking as if our little numbers and ideas matter is silly really? Just a bit - im starting to see the light Buck! Come with me...
Taaaake my hand!
Look i think most posts are fanboyish here... the facts DO NOT MATTER do they?
Has anyone bought anything which they enjoyed and then slandered because of numerical spec comparisons on an anonymous computer forum.
There are incorrect statements made all the time about both cams... i think it is a bit of a joke (given the Sony solid state is limited to its prosumer model) to describe it a real alternative to P2 - which is on all pannies industry cams and according to the % number quote, has 80% use (in the market Barry quoted.)
Who knows though what the future can hold. But for us with cams under 10$k talking as if our little numbers and ideas matter is silly really? Just a bit - im starting to see the light Buck! Come with me...
Taaaake my hand!
I don't think I am wrong. Where do you get "Cardbus is rated at 1.33 Gigabytes per second" (10.66 Gigabits per second) from? I think you may have got a decimal point in the wrong place, and you meant 1.06Gbs.
As just one reference I'll go back to the wikipedia entry - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExpressCard (the PCMCIA association say the same thing)
And key to this is that the 1.06Gbs is a SHARED bus speed. An absolute maximum anyway, and assumes operation in DWord mode (the fastest) - no way could you transfer data off a card at anything like that speed in practice, certainly nowhere near the 800Mbs of SxS.
I wouldn't expect PCIExpress to actually transfer at anything like it's quoted maximum either, but at 2.5Gbs that's 3x what SxS is rated at. In which case actual speed is far more likely to be limited by the card (or the device being transferred to!).
None of this was intended to rubbish P2, period. Far from it, and a current advantage P2 enjoys is certainly widespread establishment.
But when not Sony, but the standard setting body for BOTH Cardbus and ExpressCard effectively says "Cardbus is being phased out, ExpressCard is our new improved standard, please use it for future products" you really have to take note.
I am NOT saying that the introduction of ExpressCard means the immediate death of Cardbus or products that use it, any more than the introduction of CD writers led to the immediate demise of floppy discs in PCs - it took quite a few years. But ExpressCard is a new standard and growing, Cardbus is old and declining, end of story. That's the way technologies go. That may fit better with Sonys marketing people than with those of Panasonic, but well, sorry, that's the way it is.
lawriejaffa
Veteran
Yep thats the way of the monorail harddrive *yawn*
I tell you instead of making silly predictions and comparing p2 tech to floppy disk-drives hehe - oh we love the hyperbole,
Why don't we just agree that talking about memory cards is positively the most boring subject ever imagined between filmmakers.
Honestly... can't you feel your soul slipping typing allll these numbers etc.
Lets get back to the topic for this thread!
It was all about some yappy guy really excited by the high resolution of the EX, but needing a cuddle from other EX users before buying it...
I tell you instead of making silly predictions and comparing p2 tech to floppy disk-drives hehe - oh we love the hyperbole,
Why don't we just agree that talking about memory cards is positively the most boring subject ever imagined between filmmakers.
Honestly... can't you feel your soul slipping typing allll these numbers etc.
Lets get back to the topic for this thread!
It was all about some yappy guy really excited by the high resolution of the EX, but needing a cuddle from other EX users before buying it...
Well, to set the record straight, I was among the early adopters of P2 and was very interested in helping Jared Land set up a workshop here in Hawaii back when very few understood the P2 system.
When our fishing show made the commitment to HD I did a bit of research to catch up with what was going on with Sony's new EX1 and was lucky enough to find a local vendor who loaned me one to test for a day.
Among my concerns: the long GOP recording medium. Was it able to hold detailed images when the scene contained lots of quickly changing detail? That would be typical of getting a fish at gaff at the transom of a rolling boat in open ocean. Lots of white water and thrashing. I couldn't test this with the loaner so I simply shot bubbling water flowing into a pond.
No odd artifacts. Nothing out of the ordinary or undesirable.
Then I started to notice that bright highlights held while shadows didn't block up. Playing around with some of the settings seemed to improve that further. Dynamic range became another plus.
And, of course, while doing a side-by-side comparison of the HVX and EX! there was a significant difference in low light sensitivity and picture detail.
A real aperature ring that didn't "step" from one f-stop setting to the next was very nice. That meant I could ease into a slightly different exposure setting without making it too obvious.
The expanded focus button was right at my thumb on the EX1. Very convenient for run-and-gun focus checks. With the HVX it was somewhere on the left side and I had to hunt for it.
The difference in recording time per gigabyte was a huge plus. I believe that if you're going to shoot HD, then shoot 1080. With the P2 format, 16 gigabytes gave me 16 minutes. With SxS, I get 57 minutes. Not only does that translate into more recording time, it also greatly reduces the cost of archive and post-production storage.
The increased capacity of the SxS format also eliminates the P2 Store shuffle. I lost footage when it wasn't obvious which P2 cards were transferred into the P2 and which were pending. P2/P2 Store shuffling was an undesirable distraction when I was already burdened with keeping track of current action, story lines and technical issues while sometimes being seasick. I work as a one-man band and can use all the workload reductions I can afford.
With the EX1 I carry three 16-gig cards and two 8-gigs, labeled one through five. Enough for a full day's shooting without having to do a single swap.
That left only the green screen capability and that was soon answered quite nicely.
I kept the HVX for a couple of months until I was confident the EX1 could fully replace it.
What I do miss from the HVX is the two additional audio channels from the camera's built-in mics. It came in handy from time to time when I had two people on wireless and still wanted to get ambient or other audio from anyone nearby.
So is one format better than the other? After my own simple tests there was a difference significant enough to justify the investment in new equipment, as well as spending the time to learn a new system. But that was for the kind of work I'm doing, under the conditions in which I work. Sony's SxS format and the EX1 might not be appropriate for someone else. They'd have to do their own tests and see for themselves.
When I evaluated the purchase I did it objectively. Did the system function under the conditions I would subject it to? Was it within our budget? Did it provide the quality that our viewers would expect when the show finally does air in HD? The answers were yes to all the questions.
Of course there are the rare rolling shutter issues. But those artifacts are so briefly transient and minor that I have to point them out to someone before it's noticed. To date not a single viewer has ever mentioned it. But many have told us how good everything looks. And that's the real point of this, isn't it?
When our fishing show made the commitment to HD I did a bit of research to catch up with what was going on with Sony's new EX1 and was lucky enough to find a local vendor who loaned me one to test for a day.
Among my concerns: the long GOP recording medium. Was it able to hold detailed images when the scene contained lots of quickly changing detail? That would be typical of getting a fish at gaff at the transom of a rolling boat in open ocean. Lots of white water and thrashing. I couldn't test this with the loaner so I simply shot bubbling water flowing into a pond.
No odd artifacts. Nothing out of the ordinary or undesirable.
Then I started to notice that bright highlights held while shadows didn't block up. Playing around with some of the settings seemed to improve that further. Dynamic range became another plus.
And, of course, while doing a side-by-side comparison of the HVX and EX! there was a significant difference in low light sensitivity and picture detail.
A real aperature ring that didn't "step" from one f-stop setting to the next was very nice. That meant I could ease into a slightly different exposure setting without making it too obvious.
The expanded focus button was right at my thumb on the EX1. Very convenient for run-and-gun focus checks. With the HVX it was somewhere on the left side and I had to hunt for it.
The difference in recording time per gigabyte was a huge plus. I believe that if you're going to shoot HD, then shoot 1080. With the P2 format, 16 gigabytes gave me 16 minutes. With SxS, I get 57 minutes. Not only does that translate into more recording time, it also greatly reduces the cost of archive and post-production storage.
The increased capacity of the SxS format also eliminates the P2 Store shuffle. I lost footage when it wasn't obvious which P2 cards were transferred into the P2 and which were pending. P2/P2 Store shuffling was an undesirable distraction when I was already burdened with keeping track of current action, story lines and technical issues while sometimes being seasick. I work as a one-man band and can use all the workload reductions I can afford.
With the EX1 I carry three 16-gig cards and two 8-gigs, labeled one through five. Enough for a full day's shooting without having to do a single swap.
That left only the green screen capability and that was soon answered quite nicely.
I kept the HVX for a couple of months until I was confident the EX1 could fully replace it.
What I do miss from the HVX is the two additional audio channels from the camera's built-in mics. It came in handy from time to time when I had two people on wireless and still wanted to get ambient or other audio from anyone nearby.
So is one format better than the other? After my own simple tests there was a difference significant enough to justify the investment in new equipment, as well as spending the time to learn a new system. But that was for the kind of work I'm doing, under the conditions in which I work. Sony's SxS format and the EX1 might not be appropriate for someone else. They'd have to do their own tests and see for themselves.
When I evaluated the purchase I did it objectively. Did the system function under the conditions I would subject it to? Was it within our budget? Did it provide the quality that our viewers would expect when the show finally does air in HD? The answers were yes to all the questions.
Of course there are the rare rolling shutter issues. But those artifacts are so briefly transient and minor that I have to point them out to someone before it's noticed. To date not a single viewer has ever mentioned it. But many have told us how good everything looks. And that's the real point of this, isn't it?
lawriejaffa
Veteran
Well that was a very rational response DCsensei - nice read 
Well that was a very rational response DCsensei - nice read
Funny you mentioned that. The voices told me the same thing, too!
Barry_Green
Moderator
Clearly you haven't seen the Sony demonstration then, where they actually bring up a picture of a P2 card, stamp on a big circle with a slash through it, proclaim "P2 IS DEAD", and then bring up that quote from the PCMCIA association then.
It gets tedious and old, that's all. To have the same stuff trotted out in defiance of what's actually taking place in the market is -- it's tedious and old.
And Buck, don't start namecalling, that's not allowed here.
Barry_Green
Moderator
No, it's the old bits 'n' bytes thing again. 1.33GigaBITS per second is what I meant. Sorry 'bout that.
But the point remains that an SxS card maxxes out at 800 megabits. They're using less than 1/3 the potential speed of the ExpressCard. CardBus would have enough bandwidth to handle it.
And regardless of how you shake it, it's nearly immaterial: in real-world tests, SxS and P2 transfer at exactly the same speeds. And a P2 card can support six streams of HD directly from it, so why the worry over whether one's penis is technically larger than another's?
And yet, in the real world, you actually DO get data off the card at exactly the same speed as SxS.
Yet that's not what they said. They said no further development to the standard. They certainly never said "stop using it." Firewire 400 isn't being developed any further -- should we stop using it? Digital Betacam isn't being developed any further, should we stop using it? HDCAM isn't being developed any further, should we stop using it?
On this we can agree. But, what does that have to do with anything? That's the point I'm getting at. The message being sent here (whether you intend to send it or not) is "cardbus is dying, therefore p2 is dying, all your p2 gear is going to quit working soon, y'all better jump on SxS right now because expresscard is the fast train to happyland." And that really has nothing to do with anything. There are complete end-to-end solutions for both systems. At the very most, at the VERY most, using ExpressCard instead of CardBus might make some laptop users have a slight convenience advantage because they won't need an adapter. But as a practical video system, it is a nonissue. Adapters exist for both systems, you can get a Duel Adapter to use CardBus cards in ExpressCard slots, and you can get a Duel Adapter Cradle to use ExpressCard cards in CardBus slots.
So my point is that this whole debate is fearmongering and FUD that doesn't have any real anchor in the real world. If ExpressCards were offloading three times faster, you'd have a point to consider, but they don't. In the real world, talking about actual users and actual use, it's a wash.
PerroneFord
Deals in Lead
Barry,
There are certainly many of you out there as professionals, and even many amateur shooters (especially on this site) that have a significant investment in P2. Fair enough. But there are those of us like me, who had no investment in anything other than DV/DVCAM tape.
In looking to go HD, my choices were pretty simple. HDV to tape, HD/HDV to P2, or HD/HDV to SxS. In that framework, SxS made the most sense to me. My local affiliate that I work most often with is on DVCPro. But we don't share cameras or need to.
I have no bias one way or the other for or against Sony or Panasonic. It was merely a choice for me and my company of what made the most sense going forward without any legacy gear. To that end, I would not be buying DigiBeta, HDCam, or anything else. In fact, I am trying to move everything solid state so that we will become codec independent as much as possible.
We currently have a Firestore on the DVX100 and I will move that to the EX1. We will purchase a Convergent Systems Flash XDR, something that will allow us to walk around both codec issues, and proprietary memory card issues. Outside of the world of broadcast, I think this is the way forward.
I think this is one of the most fascinating difference between the world of TV and the world of cinema. Broadcast is a world of locked down, and competing standards, and film is marvelously simple 35 or 16mm. Digital Cinema seems to be skirting the issue to a degree with it's SDI recorders or compact flash cards.
I sometimes envy those who never have to touch a computer to shoot a film.
There are certainly many of you out there as professionals, and even many amateur shooters (especially on this site) that have a significant investment in P2. Fair enough. But there are those of us like me, who had no investment in anything other than DV/DVCAM tape.
In looking to go HD, my choices were pretty simple. HDV to tape, HD/HDV to P2, or HD/HDV to SxS. In that framework, SxS made the most sense to me. My local affiliate that I work most often with is on DVCPro. But we don't share cameras or need to.
I have no bias one way or the other for or against Sony or Panasonic. It was merely a choice for me and my company of what made the most sense going forward without any legacy gear. To that end, I would not be buying DigiBeta, HDCam, or anything else. In fact, I am trying to move everything solid state so that we will become codec independent as much as possible.
We currently have a Firestore on the DVX100 and I will move that to the EX1. We will purchase a Convergent Systems Flash XDR, something that will allow us to walk around both codec issues, and proprietary memory card issues. Outside of the world of broadcast, I think this is the way forward.
I think this is one of the most fascinating difference between the world of TV and the world of cinema. Broadcast is a world of locked down, and competing standards, and film is marvelously simple 35 or 16mm. Digital Cinema seems to be skirting the issue to a degree with it's SDI recorders or compact flash cards.
I sometimes envy those who never have to touch a computer to shoot a film.
Buck Forester
Well-known member
Barry, come on, you're a smart man. I mean, you know what's going on. You're savvy enough to know if Company A touts ExpressCard compatability because it's the latest standard, and a competitor uses a previous standard for card slots, that Company A will use that against Company B. That's just marketing in a capitalistic society. That's just how things are. I don't have to tell you this. I know you don't like Sony, but you don't have to take it personally... it's a product and it's marketing a product. That's all. Don't worry, P2 is safe as a baby in blanket for a while. Won't last forever though... don't shoot me for saying that.
??? Barry, the only thing I called you was extremely good looking. If that's not allowed, and if goofiness is not allowed, ban me or whatever you need to do. I obviously am not taking this serious like you are, or at a level you are. I simply made an obvious point about industry standards that has nothing to do with Sony or Panasonic per se, just industry standards. Some of these Panasonic guys are touchy fellers! I liiiiike the HVX200, I almost got one. I don't have anything bad to say about it. I liiike Panasonic. I liiike you. Ah lawk you alawt. I also like my EX1. It smokes. Kumbuyah. Let's all be happy.
The P2 versus SxS argument is amusing, but irrelevant. I own the EX1, but I am equally happy (if not more) with the HDV tape based workflow of the Canon XH-A1. SxS or tapeless was not a motivator for me, and still isn't even though I use it.
I like the EX1. That's why I'm here. It's the topic of discussion. Why was P2 even brought into it? (Well, I guess I brought HDV into to it...) Cheers.
I like the EX1. That's why I'm here. It's the topic of discussion. Why was P2 even brought into it? (Well, I guess I brought HDV into to it...) Cheers.
Buck Forester
Well-known member
Tom, the title of the thread alone is enough to irk off some people. I mean, seriously, who could actually be leaning TOWARDS an EX1 around here? The thread-starter was simply asking how much he should expect to pay for a used EX1... that's all.
That prompted this response:
Of course... don't get the EX1, wait for a newer Panasonic product. Duh. Ha! I guess it's a Panasonic website, should we expect different? I have only used my EX1 handheld and it's not a nightmare for me at all. It's not a pain... why would I buy a "pain"? I do this for fun and hopefully a living... if this was a pain I'm in the wrong bidness. Yes, holding the EX1 is like holding a brick with razor blades imbedded all over it. Buy a Panasonic. It's like a feathery pillow and smells like chocolate.
That's what prompted the whole irrelevant P2 discussion thing. Sure, P2 is great, and so is ExpressCard, but what does that have to do with the used price of an EX1?
BRING OUT THE CANONS! WE CAN'T LET THIS HAPPEN! WE CAN'T LOSE ANOTHER ONE... NOOOOoOOOooOOO!!! 1-2 -3- FIRE!
The thread-starter was simply asking how much he should expect to pay for a used EX1... that's all. That prompted this response:
Of course... don't get the EX1, wait for a newer Panasonic product. Duh. Ha! I guess it's a Panasonic website, should we expect different? I have only used my EX1 handheld and it's not a nightmare for me at all. It's not a pain... why would I buy a "pain"? I do this for fun and hopefully a living... if this was a pain I'm in the wrong bidness. Yes, holding the EX1 is like holding a brick with razor blades imbedded all over it. Buy a Panasonic. It's like a feathery pillow and smells like chocolate.
That's what prompted the whole irrelevant P2 discussion thing. Sure, P2 is great, and so is ExpressCard, but what does that have to do with the used price of an EX1?
BRING OUT THE CANONS! WE CAN'T LET THIS HAPPEN! WE CAN'T LOSE ANOTHER ONE... NOOOOoOOOooOOO!!! 1-2 -3- FIRE!
Tom, the title of the thread alone is enough to irk off some people. I mean, seriously, who could actually be leaning TOWARDS an EX1 around here?
I have to agree with that. They are entitled to be irked. I'm the guest, not the host so the point is to try not to add to it.