grey market - do companies intentionally produce inferior units?

wgzn

wgzn

Veteran
ok, after seeing yet another "is this deal legit" posting. there are still things that i dont get.

everyone talks about "international versions" of a camera. what i dont get is, do manufacturers actually produce lower quality units for sale in non-us markets?

if these units were counterfeit, that would make sense. but a manufacturer intentionally producing a lower quality product for overseas markets seems as ethically questionable as the people here selling them...
 
In the case of mass market electronics like the HVX-200, they are the same the world over. They are all made in the same factory by the same workers. The differences are in warranty and accessories besides the obvious differences between NTSC and PAL cameras.

What would lead you to the conclusion that the cameras for other markets are made any differently?

D
 
following that movie posted in the other thread about the grey-market one having a plastic outer casing, etc...

maybe that WAS a counterfeit? i know that chinese companies ape a lot of other products. why not cameras as well?
 
Counterfeit is a whole other issue and yes, I suppose that there are probably counterfeit cameras that exist.

It still amazes me about how many naive people post here and elsewhere on other boards about these "amazing" deals on new cameras. I spoke with a guy the other day as a favor to one of the non-technical producers that I work with, he had a friend who had a friend who needed advice about which camera to get. He was convinced that his deal over the Internet for a brand new in box Sony V1 for U.S. $1,500.00 was legit, even after I told him that he will get ripped off, it's a scam.

People's ignorance and greed is truly astounding. If you want the real deal, you buy from an authorized reputable dealer. All of this "buying one on Ebay" is for suckers and as P.T. Barnum once suggested, there is one born every minute.

Dan
 
puredrifting said:
People's ignorance and greed is truly astounding. If you want the real deal, you buy from an authorized reputable dealer. All of this "buying one on Ebay" is for suckers and as P.T. Barnum once suggested, there is one born every minute.

Dan
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Absolutely not true, but I suppose if you repeat it often enough, it will become true.

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Panasonic is protecting their distributors by allowing them to charge higher in certain regions than others. As mentioned before, all the cameras come from the same factory.

My HVX is technically Greymarket because I bought it in North America and use it in Russia where I live. All that means is that either I have to ship it back for warranty repairs, or send it to the local Panasonic shop and pay out of my own pocket. The camera isn't any better or worse.
 
There are some reputable dealers of hardware on Ebay. There not all crooks. If you know what you want and who the good dealers are then its pretty safe. Some dealers sell demo units and new units and others

sell vaporware. If they have sold 300,000 items with a 99% rating then there probably safe. If they have sold 30 things then you should not buy.
 
When I first bought my DVX100A, I did know anything about the Grey Market. And I bought it from one of those sites that most people stay away from. The Camera came new in box with a warranty from Canada. That was 3 years ago and the Camera works fine. I don't condone Grey Market but I have not had a problem with mine. When I buy the HPX170 in a few months it will not be Grey market.
 
pmark23 said:
My HVX is technically Greymarket because I bought it in North America and use it in Russia where I live. All that means is that either I have to ship it back for warranty repairs, or send it to the local Panasonic shop and pay out of my own pocket. The camera isn't any better or worse.
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I agree entirely. We operate two grey market HVX200s and one grey market HPX500 in Manila. We use them on grey market Sachtler tripods and heads and with grey market P2 cards. I am thinking about adding grey market BT-LH80W monitors from B&H Photo for each of them soon. All of these grey market items were bought in the US and have US warranties but were taken to Manila since they were not available there. I guess 'grey market' depends on your point of view.
 
Chris Santucci said:
Absolutely not true, but I suppose if you repeat it often enough, it will become true.

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Which part isn't true Chris? I'm not saying it's impossible to buy a real, legit HVX via Ebay, I am saying that you are taking a chance with Ebay.

I hardly use my account and I receive phishing e-mails weekly and my account itself has been taken over by scam artists from Hong Kong twice in the past five years no matter which password I set it up with. I receive e-mails asking me when I am shipping their new towel sets or camera lens all of the time when I have not even used my account for almost a year. I can't even tell if these are legitimate inquiries but Ebay security has told me that my account has been hacked twice. Ebay is a much larger risk than buying from B&H or Abel or someone like that.

As far as gray market, I do it all of the time with still stuff, about half of my Nikon gear is gray but I went in with thirty years of Nikon experience and they are all lenses. In thirty years of using Nikon lenses, I have never had a failure of any kind with a lens so why worry about the warranty on lenses. OTOH, I would not buy the flash or body from a gray dealer because I have had both of those breakdown and I was thankful I had a U.S. warranty because I used it.

Same with video gear. With 4,500 parts on an HVX, I feel that buying one without a U.S. warranty is not an acceptable risk to save a few bucks (for me). As far as others, I agree that it all depends on your situation and location as to whether or not a gray camera is a good decision. But lots of people do get ripped off with HVXs, I have spoken with four myself, all bought from either Ebay or from the Crooklyn scam artists that have small ads in the back of all of the industry mags.

D
 
puredrifting said:
People's ignorance and greed is truly astounding. If you want the real deal, you buy from an authorized reputable dealer. All of this "buying one on Ebay" is for suckers and as P.T. Barnum once suggested, there is one born every minute.
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As the OP on the latest "is this a scam" thread, I have to take issue with your ridiculous characterization of people who come to this forum seeking advice.

I wanted to confirm my suspicions, so I visited a forum with a good reputation and a user base I felt I could trust. I got the information I needed, and confirmed that the reseller was probably grey market. This is the flow of research I took: identifying the product I wanted, to Googling the product, to becoming wary of the huge disparity between advertised prices, to seeking an expert.

If helping me out was such a burden, then nobody would've responded to my post. As it happened, the answer to my question was easy and obvious to anybody who's been around the camera market for a while--so what's the problem? How does that make me greedy, ignorant, or a sucker? You have to realize that as more sophisticated cameras become priced as "prosumer" models, you're going to have more noobs like me asking questions about prosumer-level deals.

This forum seems to attract both experts and amateurs, and if the number of noob-level questions becomes overwhelming, you could just make a sticky thread for deal-seekers. Your FAQ is empty, I searched "HVX200A Deal" and found nothing useful. and I couldn't find the thread with the list of authorized resellers, so... here we are. Sorry I'm so greedy.


(and sorry for the thread hijack)
 
Bitter:

If it was such a burden to offer advice, would I have bothered posting in this thread? The fact that you take my characterization of a fictional buyer seeking an unrealistic price personally perhaps seems to make you insecure about your buying habits? I don't recall naming BitterJester in my post.

Perhaps my wording is a bit strong but as any of the working pros who are on this sight will tell you, this is one of the most commonly asked questions on all of the pro video/filmmaking boards and it's motivation is from people trying to get a deal that is too good to be true. Trying to get something for nothing would be considered a basic tenant of greed. As to whether or not you are greedy, only you know that for sure. I don't know you so I would never accuse you of being greedy. Thinking that someone will sell you a product at 1/2 or 1/3 of dealer wholesale cost is basically naive unless the dealer is crooked, going bankrupt or the merchandise is stolen. That would lead me to believe that if the dealer doesn't match any of the above criteria, they are going to rip you off by charging you separately for items that are normally included with the camera. The users on this forum generally will acknowledge if a price is realistic or is too good to be true.

I have quite a few years of experience in selling video gear, both consumer and professional on a multimillion dollar level. Consumer video gear generally has one of the lowest profit margins in all electronics, generally zero for loss leaders all of the way up to about 10 to 12% profit at the highest end. Video is the most common purchase at an electronics store, therefore has the most competition. The most competition equals the lowest profit margin for the dealer. Do the math, when someone says that they can get a new HVX for $2,000.00, and they really believe it, I am sorry, in my mind, they are being ignorant and greedy.

I am so sorry that you take this personally, it is not aimed specifically at you but it is good advice for those who wonder if a deal that is too good to be true is too good to be true. Ask any cop what he would term victims of a confidence scam, "poor innocent victims" or "greedy". Even the "little old lady" who falls for the Nigerian prince e-mail scam is guilty of being greedy. If someone wasn't offering them something for nothing, nobody would fall into these scams

Good luck with your pruchase.

Dan
 
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I think the OP may be referring to this YouTube clip:

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=gEvLhJr84Ks

It's a talking head piece about grey market cameras from Brooklyn. The speaker bought an HVX200 from one of them for a very low price, and claims it was different, with cheap plastic parts instead of the magnesium alloy chassis of a proper HVX. He goes on to state that certain international models are commonly made this way. So he sent it back and got a full-price US model from B&H, which is fine.

But as to his claims re: the plastic chassis (which was related, according to him, to a clicking, noisy zoom problem), I've never heard of such a thing, and find it dubious.

As others have said, it's my understanding that there's only one basic camera being made by Panasonic. Then they're spec'd with region-appropriate language menus, voltages, legal considerations and so on, and a warranty which only applies to the native region.

But alternate, cheaper basic parts like the chassis or the zoom? I find that hard to believe, unless there are some Chinese fakes floating about that have never been unearthed before. That aspect of the gentleman's account seems highly suspect to me, and consequently rather puzzling with regard to its motivation.
 
David S. said:
Buying from a confirmed Panasonic authorized on eBay makes sense. Buying from a solid seller on eBay makes sense.

Otherwise, it is absolutely true.
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Sorry, but there's absolutely nothing "wrong" with buying a camera from a reputable dealer who is not an "authorized dealer." Am I missing something here? If I get the U.S. model and the warranty, what's the problem????

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chris, what youre repeatedly refusing to acknowledge is that your case is not the norm. many people arent as fortunate as youve been. many people following the path you did, get taken.

nobodys saying good and legit deals cant be had online or elsewhere - and nobodys saying that grey market is always an evil thing.

but buyer be ware and buyer be informed.
 
Chris Santucci said:
Sorry, but there's absolutely nothing "wrong" with buying a camera from a reputable dealer who is not an "authorized dealer." Am I missing something here? If I get the U.S. model and the warranty, what's the problem????

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Chris:

Yes you are missing something.

I stated that it makes sense to either by from: (1) an authorized Panasonic dealer on ebay; or (2) a solid seller on eBay.

Otherwise, it is a ride at Disneyland.

Read what I wrote.
 
Chris Santucci said:
Sorry, but there's absolutely nothing "wrong" with buying a camera from a reputable dealer who is not an "authorized dealer." Am I missing something here? If I get the U.S. model and the warranty, what's the problem????

.
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I am sure that Jan Crittenden could chime in on this but for starters, no rebates or problems getting rebates. All of the Panasonic rebate offers I have redeemed required that the camera was purchased from an authorized dealer.

Also, how do non-authorized dealers obtain new, factory fresh merchandise? That's where we usually get into the gray market issue, right?

Dan
 
David S. said:
Chris:

Yes you are missing something.

I stated that it makes sense to either by from: (1) an authorized Panasonic dealer on ebay; or (2) a solid seller on eBay.

Otherwise, it is a ride at Disneyland.

Read what I wrote.
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Don't try to trick me with your word games :cheesy:

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It costs more to support and repair the camera in different countries. It costs more to market the camera in different countries and languages.
Being able to price the camera to individual markets can drive sales globally, which can support economies of scale and ultimately make a less expensive product. I think that's the basics of why the gray market exists.
 
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