Making Movies Risky - Less than .1% Succeed

finklefilms said:
Great article! I just completed my second film. It's a 30 minute short. Now I am left feeling like "What to do now?"

How do I get my foot in the door to work on commercial type films? How do I show the people who make the hiring decisions that I am eager and talented enough to work for them in any facet?

I'm really happy jls4 posted the article as there appears to be some great discussion going on here. I really must thank the members of this site for a lot of guidance over the past year.
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Thanks for the kudos and loved your trailer. Looks like you guys had a pretty good crew and some nice toys. dolly made me salivate a little. :-)

For me, I've always been a believer in doing it. Just Do It - like Nike. What's the worst that could happen - you end up with a movie? Isn't that what we all want?

My 2nd film the one I sold, trust me if most of you guys saw it, you'd loose respect for me. :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG) But I'm .....somewhat proud of it. :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG) I got it in the can, I learned a lot and I sold it. I've seen so many people's work that has better prod quality than mine, but I get on a project and I finish to move to the next one. If I can do it, you can do it. So I believe in getting help, trying the hollywood doors-connections-etc, but if they don't open. Just do it. A feature is simply 3 shorts put together. If you have 2 to 3 shorts under your belt, you could have already done a feature.

Btu remember... keep it cheap!
 
Sean Smith said:
I think it is much harder (more pressure) being married with children. BGE are raising their rates even more. I have to create on a smaller scale due to the needs of my primary investors... the family. Even though I am on a smaller financial scale for the work by night projects, I do find having this type of overhead keeps me so much more focused where failure is not an option. You would be surprised what you can accomplish when you remove failure from the equation.

It's corporate by day and creative self interests by night so I find myself burning the candle at both ends a lot after the wife and kids go to bed. Thank God for passion.
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Praise GOD I don't have kids yet. I don't think I could handle it. But I'm doing the same thing. 9 to 5 then working at night and weekends on movie projects. I'm always tired and most of the time feel like I'm in quicksand with like no movement. But keep pressing on!
 
filthrich said:
We all do it because we love it. I am sure no one on this site dropped 5 to 10 Grand on equipment to not make movies with it. It is a tough business for sure and I know I am not good enough to direct a major motion picture, but with time and practice I could be. Hell, all I did was read every book on editing, shooting, lighting, audio, framing etc. i could find, Bought all of the equipment on the same day. and just starting shooting videos. The way I did it could be the problem with indie or It could be the answer. Don't Know. I wish I went to film school but I graduated, walked across that stage, And I did not want to go back to school and become more in debt. There are A lot of bad film makers but with practice they may not stay that way.
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Your story is a lot like mine. Self-equipped and self-taught in a flurry, wishing I'd seen the light sooner.

Thing is I probably would never have undertaken all this if it weren't for the accessibility of digital technologies (I think the film stock, chemical developing, steinbeck editing equipment, and having to rely on much richer people to lend/rent me a camera dissuaded me from venturing into this territory). But I do wish I'd done film school, instead of getting 2 university degrees in things I have little interest in.

The downside of the digital revolution is that it IS harder to rise above the noise. I think real talent wins out in the end--cream rises. But still, 15 years ago, a number of these dvxuser fest films would probably have landed the filmmaker a development deal at a major studio...while today, 99.9% of them will be yet another digital effort lost in a sea of good/bad/ugly films.
 
Going the film school route myself. It's for lots of reasons, the biggest being networking opportunities and free equipment. I want to do features, I feel like I'm ready for my first one but I've got to decide which one to do first. I finished my first (technically second) feature script last summer and I've been writing again since December, got two feature scripts done by April, I'm now working on my third before I go to grad school for film. A couple are meant for 3D animation, another is definitely live action (horror) that will be done in a way no one has ever seen before, and the other can be either one or the other.

The article certainly has me worried a little. So what if my budget was less than $10 million? If it's a better movie than the $10+ million movie over there then isn't it an easy decision to make on which one to buy? Heck, the movies I've written can definitely be done for under $100,000 (have to blow up and account for a RED of course but that's besides the point). The 3D ones can be done for less than $20,000 and that's without factoring in the software I already have access to.

Look at the movies that come out of theatres. Each one makes at least $50 million on wide release. Limited release is different, then you may only make a few hundred thousand, if that. There are some disappointments and flat out bombs to account for but, admittedly, that's because someone either bought or was sold into a bad movie and they'll have to look for work the following day.

What this all means is that, in order to be a success, you have to make a good movie that everyone will love. Once you start limiting an audience to a specific group (ie. art film) then your box office will tank. A lot of indie filmmakers and even studio filmmakers, I think, focus WAY too much on their film's message. Some of you may know what I mean but for those of you that don't, what I mean is that the film will try to shove its message down your throat versus suggesting it to you through an entertaining way. Take, for instance, M. Night Shyamalan's "The Happening". What was that about? The planet attacking us for being a threat to it and that we better start taking better care of our planet or else. What happened? He forgot to display this in an entertaining way. He rushed it. They mention terrorists left and right, thus adding the element of worrying about chemical warfare, the planet attacking us and the causes, including global warming, and even having an anti-gun sentiment by showing crazy, of course, Southern people *rolls eyes* hoarding away guns and getting them ready to use on people at any moment. Wow, what a powerful movie right? No, not really. One of the best ones I've seen was "Monsters Inc." which was essentially an ad for alternative fuel sources. Children's screams equal = fossil fuel and it's a drain on the monster economy while also becoming harder and harder to get without resorting to harsh action. Children's laughter = alternative fuel sources and it's much easier to get, works with the current storage workflow, more powerful than the old stuff, and can practically last forever. This is all said while we follow a cute, funny, and ultimately entertaining adventure. I hope I didn't ruin that movie for you, I just noticed it the other day when it was on TV and thought about it. Funny, huh?
 
jls4 said:
Thanks for the kudos and loved your trailer. Looks like you guys had a pretty good crew and some nice toys. dolly made me salivate a little. :-)

For me, I've always been a believer in doing it. Just Do It - like Nike. What's the worst that could happen - you end up with a movie? Isn't that what we all want?

My 2nd film the one I sold, trust me if most of you guys saw it, you'd loose respect for me. :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG) But I'm .....somewhat proud of it. :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG) I got it in the can, I learned a lot and I sold it. I've seen so many people's work that has better prod quality than mine, but I get on a project and I finish to move to the next one. If I can do it, you can do it. So I believe in getting help, trying the hollywood doors-connections-etc, but if they don't open. Just do it. A feature is simply 3 shorts put together. If you have 2 to 3 shorts under your belt, you could have already done a feature.

Btu remember... keep it cheap!
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Haha, I wouldn't really say that, 2-3 shorts? I think a short should be 10 minutes max. So a feature is about 9 shorts...

I admire anyone who just goes out there and shoots a feature, randomly, without having the proper tools, the proper budget, etc. Just because that's a person who obviously isn't going to be deterred by, well, anything, haha.

I can't do that personally because I'm a perfectionist and tend to wait to do something until the time is just right for me. I'm aggressive but also patient, it just depends. I am patiently aggressive, perhaps ;)

I'm sort of working on a feature now but I don't know what exactly this project would be classified as, like if it could be considered a documentary or not really. I don't really think it's a documentary but it has elements that make it a lot like that. It's just basically a feature-length "making of indie music videos" project that explains how to do something with behind-the-scenes footage, interviews to come, etc. So I suppose in actuality this will be sort of like my first "feature," but I don't really think of it that way. The cost of the project itself will only be about $5,000 probably, but the money I'll have put into everything will be about $20,000. Still, I'm hoping to make some money back on the project, actually if it made its $20,000 back I'd be very happy because it's basically reel work for me, so if I could get back what I put into my reel I'd feel like I had done something pretty sweet. But as for a real feature, a narrative feature that is, just doing the math on what I want to accomplish I am struggling with whether it'd even be possible at $125,000. There's just so much that goes into it, and I want to make it right, so if I could do it for that I'd be stoked. But at the same time, I basically won't make it for more than that. I have to find a way or not do it at all because if I spend much more than that I won't be able to make my money back probably.
 
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JonathanLB said:
Haha, I wouldn't really say that, 2-3 shorts? I think a short should be 10 minutes max. So a feature is about 9 shorts...

I admire anyone who just goes out there and shoots a feature, randomly, without having the proper tools, the proper budget, etc. Just because that's a person who obviously isn't going to be deterred by, well, anything, haha.

I can't do that personally because I'm a perfectionist and tend to wait to do something until the time is just right for me. I'm aggressive but also patient, it just depends. I am patiently aggressive, perhaps ;)

... I am struggling with whether it'd even be possible at $125,000. There's just so much that goes into it, and I want to make it right, so if I could do it for that I'd be stoked. But at the same time, I basically won't make it for more than that. I have to find a way or not do it at all because if I spend much more than that I won't be able to make my money back probably.
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I've seen people with 25 minute shorts, that's why I say 3 shorts. But that's cool. Everyone has their own path. I'm a prefectionist too, believe it or not, but I've never been one to wait on perfection. If that makes since.

When I made my first movie on VHS - yes VHS Camcorder 270 lines. I was watching a movie on VHS and I said to myself, wow people watch this grainy stuff. I can do that! Well I didn't quite do it, but I learned a lot. Next movie miniDV 525 lines, Double! Yay! I leanred even more, especially about audio and post production. This last movie HDV 1440 x 1080p 4x resolution jump. Really honed in on lighting, learned more about post and audio, fixed many of the problems that infected my 1st and 2nd. With the next I plan to finally fix at least 95% of the problems. (also have been collecting that great equipment along the way and I rent it out to make more money to buy equipment)

Last night I watched a movie "Night of the Dead: Leben Tod". Man this was definately not the best thing in the world. But it won 2 film festivals. It was full of bad plot lines, poor acting, bad lighting, seemed to be shot in Beta or DVPro. The point is that it's in Blockbuster and now I'm viewing it. It looks bad compared to my current movie without a doubt and the quality is worse than half of DVXUser. So for me, I can perfect my craft as I make money.

Each of the 3 movies I've directed has at least quadrupled in prod quality from the last one. So I'm on track for a person who didn't go to film school and learned everything from Behind the Scenes Footage and the Internet. When I get the next one finished and out to some festivals, I may let you guys know what my 2nd one was so you can go rent it. And when you see it, you'll say D@mn, I can do that!? :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)
 
Yeah, I think you can't make the mistake of waiting too long on perfection. I mean, you can't just say, "Well I don't know how to make a movie as good as Gladiator, so I can't make any movies," or "Well, I could never make a music video like the biggest ones on MTV, so screw it, I'll just keep reading books until maybe one day I'll figure it out." Nah, you have to jump in there and try, at least, because that's how you learn.

I much prefer your way of learning than the film school path. Then again, I have neither the patience nor the humility for the film school path. I don't see any reason to spend 3 years learning how to make movies, when I see such bad films coming out of even the best schools like USC. If that's what you learn in 3 years, no thanks, I was making pro work within a year of moving to Los Angeles, by hiring professionals and working with the right equipment. I didn't care if I didn't know how to do all of the technical stuff, or if I couldn't grip, or if I didn't know everything a film school student knew. I still don't, because I learn it as I go. I am a pretty decent grip now, I can hold my own anyway, and I've only gripped a few times, heck most of my grip work is on my own projects where I was directing as well but we had a tiny crew because of the budget, but I was making money anyway. Not to mention just being around professionals makes you more professional because you learn from them. My DP paid me a great compliment on my last music video, which I really appreciated. I guess the Unit Production Manager asked if the DP was bothered (they are good friends) by my inexperience and the DP said, no, because you only have to tell Jonathan once and he gets it. I'm a fast learner so I prefer to learn as I do things. There are consequences, and it costs money this way too, not as much as film school in many ways, though, but I have spent money on my own projects learning a lot on each one. That knowledge could have been gained over years and years of being on other people's sets, etc. I just don't have that much patience.
 
JonathanLB said:
Nah, you have to jump in there and try, at least, because that's how you learn.

I much prefer your way of learning than the film school path. Then again, I have neither the patience nor the humility for the film school path. I don't see any reason to spend 3 years learning how to make movies, when I see such bad films coming out of even the best schools like USC. If that's what you learn in 3 years, no thanks, I was making pro work within a year of moving to Los Angeles, by hiring professionals and working with the right equipment.
...
There are consequences, and it costs money this way too, not as much as film school in many ways, though, but I have spent money on my own projects learning a lot on each one. That knowledge could have been gained over years and years of being on other people's sets, etc. I just don't have that much patience.
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Well good Morning! I didn't think I would see a response for at leat a few hours. How early is it on the West coast?

Yeah, I think if I could've gone more of your route I would have. But you play the hand that your a delt in this life and try to work with it. Thing I've seen that has disappointed me the most, is all the people doing something "professionally" but don't really know how to do it. There's a guy here in Atlanta, that always hires guys from LA to shoot his short movies. his shorts! So now what would have cost $1K costs $5K because he brings them in. But when you see his stuff, his prod quality is all that! It just costs him more. I've been trying to work with my crew and get their quality up to the guys out in LA, so we can work with home grown.

And since day 1, I've been learning every position on the crew. I'm actually pretty descent in Audio, Lighting and Camera, although I'm not the best DP and I don't understand the technical side of Audio or lighting, but I know enough about each to do a better job than 80% of the people that claim they know how to do it.:grin:
 
jls4 said:
Praise GOD I don't have kids yet. I don't think I could handle it. But I'm doing the same thing. 9 to 5 then working at night and weekends on movie projects. I'm always tired and most of the time feel like I'm in quicksand with like no movement. But keep pressing on!
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Kids are a beatiful thing, but gone are the days when you could go, and do anything you wanted. I miss those days sometimes. But seeing my son's toothless grin when he farts brings me back to the present.

I am new to DVXUSER and have not viewed any other fest movies. But Time Fest made me a beliver in independent film making. Some are just amazing.
 
filthrich said:
Kids are a beatiful thing, but gone are the days when you could go, and do anything you wanted. I miss those days sometimes. But seeing my son's toothless grin when he farts brings me back to the present.

I am new to DVXUSER and have not viewed any other fest movies. But Time Fest made me a beliver in independent film making. Some are just amazing.
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Yeah - good thing about having Nephews! I've got 2. In fact every sibling on my wife's and my side have children. We are the only ones that don't. In fact most of my friends have kids. My sister about gave up on us. I don't want to be the type of person to blame my children for my faults. Unfortunately it has taken me over 7 years to really understand, with any depth, moviemaking. i'm glad I waited for kids, so when they come, I won't have any regrets. My wife and I plan on trying to start after I finish up the horror film that i'm beginning to write.

I havent' had a chance to check out many of the Fest Films. I do click on the banners here and there and go watch what people are offering: trailers, shorts, stills, behind the scenes, etc. Much of the work out here is good. DVXUsers really should be proud.
 
You'll have them when you're ready. Me and my wife were together for 10 years before we had kids. Then Boom!..a girl, then a boy. The good thing is that you can always practice!! and practice a lot.
 
Who needs hollywood when we have DVXUSER.
Let's join together and make more films.




....I felt the need to chime in with some positive message.
GO TEAM.
 
lol
I assume this article was written assuming movies are made for a profit.
While some of them have been, I think all of us here do it out of passion.
If one is doing what one loves, I fail to see any risk.
 
grinner said:
lol
I assume this article was written assuming movies are made for a profit.
While some of them have been, I think all of us here do it out of passion.
If one is doing what one loves, I fail to see any risk.
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The risk lies in no longer being able to do what you love due to financial hardship.
 
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