Zak Forsman
Major Contributor
by being objective... and not being married to what i shot... and killing my darlings to make a leaner, meaner film than was written... one that moves like a threshing machine on a fuel tank full of ether.
"Corrado" - A production blog
- Thread starter taormina
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by being objective... and not being married to what i shot... and killing my darlings to make a leaner, meaner film than was written... one that moves like a threshing machine on a fuel tank full of ether.
Zak Forsman
Major Contributor
let me give you an idea of our editorial process on Heart of Now...
we had a 24 day shoot with 10 hour days and about 30 location. 33, i think. we shot about 50 hours worth of footage.
the assembly cut was built by the editor during production. I would review this every night at the end of the day for reference on the day i was about to go into. it was invaluable. -> running time was 3.5 hours when finished.
the editor's first cut after three months of mining all the footage and experimenting with scenes -> 105 minutes.
and that's where we are right now. next we move on to the next stage where we begin to analyze options for what portions of scenes can go without harming the integrity of the structure. often, losing certain scenes creates great questions in the audience's mind that get answered later in the story than originally intended... but it works as a reveal and engages the audience on a higher level.
you'd be surprised what an experienced, professional editor can accomplish. but i know everyone's process is different. it sounds like the script remains the blueprint for you from beginning to end. and so i can see why you have a cut you're happy with after 5 passes. when all is said and done, Heart of Now will probably have undergone dozens versions before it truly starts to sing.
i have a small list of scenes or parts of scenes right now, that I LOVE. I LOVE THEM. but i know in my heart that they need to go, or need to be significantly tightened. my target is to get under 90 minutes. the screenplay was something like 110 pages. i think. haven't looked at it in six months.
we had a 24 day shoot with 10 hour days and about 30 location. 33, i think. we shot about 50 hours worth of footage.
the assembly cut was built by the editor during production. I would review this every night at the end of the day for reference on the day i was about to go into. it was invaluable. -> running time was 3.5 hours when finished.
the editor's first cut after three months of mining all the footage and experimenting with scenes -> 105 minutes.
and that's where we are right now. next we move on to the next stage where we begin to analyze options for what portions of scenes can go without harming the integrity of the structure. often, losing certain scenes creates great questions in the audience's mind that get answered later in the story than originally intended... but it works as a reveal and engages the audience on a higher level.
you'd be surprised what an experienced, professional editor can accomplish. but i know everyone's process is different. it sounds like the script remains the blueprint for you from beginning to end. and so i can see why you have a cut you're happy with after 5 passes. when all is said and done, Heart of Now will probably have undergone dozens versions before it truly starts to sing.
i have a small list of scenes or parts of scenes right now, that I LOVE. I LOVE THEM. but i know in my heart that they need to go, or need to be significantly tightened. my target is to get under 90 minutes. the screenplay was something like 110 pages. i think. haven't looked at it in six months.
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filmman
Veteran
I'd appreciate some information on encoding for DVD. This might be useful for a good many people that read this thread.
I just finished my feature Felliniesque Players today. I already sent an 83 minute rough cut to a festival, but I hadn't mixed the sound well enough and the titles weren't 100% complete, so today I finished the mix and 90% of the titles. I still need to add a few more titles thanking this and that person.
Anyway, regarding the export and encoding. If I do an encode for DVD SP and it takes several hours (or like you Adam 14 hours) and say I want to just add a new title section at the end, what do I do?
Should I wait or encode only the end credits and attach them at the end of the exported and encoded movie? It doesn't make sense to go through two or three encodes when piecemeal encoding will do the trick. What say ye?
Thanks for the help.
Oh, and if you want the best looking DVD, do not encode from HiDef or HDV timeline, via Compressor for example, first do an 8-bit uncompressed export and THEN drag the uncompressed self-contained file into DVD SP and let DVD SP do the encoding for you.
The result will look 10 times better. I mean that. Try it I don't care what anybody says. I've done this too many times and the results are indisputable and spectacular.
I just finished my feature Felliniesque Players today. I already sent an 83 minute rough cut to a festival, but I hadn't mixed the sound well enough and the titles weren't 100% complete, so today I finished the mix and 90% of the titles. I still need to add a few more titles thanking this and that person.
Anyway, regarding the export and encoding. If I do an encode for DVD SP and it takes several hours (or like you Adam 14 hours) and say I want to just add a new title section at the end, what do I do?
Should I wait or encode only the end credits and attach them at the end of the exported and encoded movie? It doesn't make sense to go through two or three encodes when piecemeal encoding will do the trick. What say ye?
Thanks for the help.Oh, and if you want the best looking DVD, do not encode from HiDef or HDV timeline, via Compressor for example, first do an 8-bit uncompressed export and THEN drag the uncompressed self-contained file into DVD SP and let DVD SP do the encoding for you.
The result will look 10 times better. I mean that. Try it
I don't care what anybody says. I've done this too many times and the results are indisputable and spectacular.
taormina
Hates to Rent
My process is a little different in that we did not shoot that much extra material. Only one scene was cut from the film that didn't make sense after we came up with better ideas on set.
I was fairly close to the target TRT of Corrado on the first pass...within a few minutes of where I am now.
Corrado has a fairly simple story and there is really only so much that can be done with it.
They are totally different movies for totally different purposes. We shot what we needed to shoot, nothing more save a few minor changes.
To illustrate that point, we shot about 17 hours of footage to your 50.
I was fairly close to the target TRT of Corrado on the first pass...within a few minutes of where I am now.
Corrado has a fairly simple story and there is really only so much that can be done with it.
They are totally different movies for totally different purposes. We shot what we needed to shoot, nothing more save a few minor changes.
To illustrate that point, we shot about 17 hours of footage to your 50.
taormina
Hates to Rent
I'd appreciate some information on encoding for DVD. This might be useful for a good many people that read this thread.
I just finished my feature Felliniesque Players today. I already sent an 83 minute rough cut to a festival, but I hadn't mixed the sound well enough and the titles weren't 100% complete, so today I finished the mix and 90% of the titles. I still need to add a few more titles thanking this and that person.
Anyway, regarding the export and encoding. If I do an encode for DVD SP and it takes several hours (or like you Adam 14 hours) and say I want to just add a new title section at the end, what do I do?
Should I wait or encode only the end credits and attach them at the end of the exported and encoded movie? It doesn't make sense to go through two or three encodes when piecemeal encoding will do the trick. What say ye?
Oh, and if you want the best looking DVD, do not encode from HiDef or HDV timeline, via Compressor for example, first do an 8-bit uncompressed export and THEN drag the uncompressed self-contained file into DVD SP and let DVD SP do the encoding for you.
The result will look 10 times better. I mean that. Try it
What NLE are you using, Filmman?
Zak Forsman
Major Contributor
he's using Final Cut Studio.
Filmman the key to great looking encodes is in Compressor's "frame controls". by default everything is off. you need to turn it on and set everything to "best".
Filmman the key to great looking encodes is in Compressor's "frame controls". by default everything is off. you need to turn it on and set everything to "best".
taormina
Hates to Rent
Either way I'm not aware of a way to simply attach anything to the end. One thing my 14 hour long render taught me was to go back through with a fine tooth comb for the hundredth time, because if one thing, even one thing is wrong I will need another 14 hours to render!
The benefit of rendering at this stage is simply being able to pop it in a DVD and watch it, taking notes on the couch. It watches different on a tv than in the NLE where I am inclined to pause the playback and make changes, which ruins the pace of the movie.
As a matter of fact, I was rendering in the default 8 bit mode. I phoned Sony about this and they said the best quality 32 bit floating point mode would take even longer.....
The benefit of rendering at this stage is simply being able to pop it in a DVD and watch it, taking notes on the couch. It watches different on a tv than in the NLE where I am inclined to pause the playback and make changes, which ruins the pace of the movie.
As a matter of fact, I was rendering in the default 8 bit mode. I phoned Sony about this and they said the best quality 32 bit floating point mode would take even longer.....
Brandon Rice
Distributed Producer
The first cut of NGL was about 130 min. without the opening or end credits in...
The current cut is 109 min. including the opening and end credits.
That's 21 minutes cut, and we haven't lost any of the story... we actually haven't cut very many full scenes (only one or two) but we've trimmed here and there, removed unnecessary lines, trimmed montage's, etc.
We'll probably be around 107-109 min. TRT at our final cut, which we're real close to now.
Brandon Rice
Distributed Producer
Zak, very interesting to read about your post process...
Just a question, wasn't much of HON improv? If so, that makes editing even more critical... now, don't get me wrong, in NGL I've restructured entire scenes, including the opening scene to play much faster and completely different than originally written, but the structure of the story pretty much stayed the same from script to edit.
They do say you make a film three times... you write it, you shoot it, you edit it... each process the film changes and evolves... very rarely is a film the same all the way through.
Mark Johnson
The Dude Abides
The process of editing is the most fascinating part of making a film to me. While there are a lot of books on editing out there, one of my very favorites is "The Conversations - Walter Murch and the Art of Editing Film." Unlike typical editing theory books, this one really delves into Murch's thoughts and personal approaches with respect to a whole series of projects.
I also really enjoyed "Behind the Seen" that chronicles Murch's editing of COLD MOUNTAIN on version 5.1 of Final Cut Pro. What I really liked about that book was its documentation of the process getting the film down from its first assembly (over four hours) to the 2:29 running time that Harvey Weinstein signed off on. It truly underscored the beauty of the art of editing to me and makes me appreciate all the more the work of Adam, Zak, Brandon an others who have or are wrestling footage into a watchable feature film.
I also really enjoyed "Behind the Seen" that chronicles Murch's editing of COLD MOUNTAIN on version 5.1 of Final Cut Pro. What I really liked about that book was its documentation of the process getting the film down from its first assembly (over four hours) to the 2:29 running time that Harvey Weinstein signed off on. It truly underscored the beauty of the art of editing to me and makes me appreciate all the more the work of Adam, Zak, Brandon an others who have or are wrestling footage into a watchable feature film.
filmman
Veteran
Thanks, Zak. No wonder... LOL. Frame Controls, huh? Wow! I must fiddle with them. I once started fooling with frame controls, but it was with respect to a web encode I was doing for a 3 minute trailer. It didn't help me much I guess because I was already working with reduced quality SD.
I will definitely try a few encodes of my HDV timeline. I will take small scenes and fiddle with it. There are a lot of settings there beside "best". But definitely it's worth a try. I'm essentially new to NLE.
And, yes, I'm using FCP Studio 5.04 and a G5 dual processor 2.7s with 4 Gigs of RAM.
I will definitely try a few encodes of my HDV timeline. I will take small scenes and fiddle with it. There are a lot of settings there beside "best". But definitely it's worth a try. I'm essentially new to NLE.
And, yes, I'm using FCP Studio 5.04 and a G5 dual processor 2.7s with 4 Gigs of RAM.
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filmman
Veteran
Adam, the distributors liked your script from the beginning. You shot only 17 days if I recall correctly. Therefore, you shouldn't have to cut 20 minutes from your movie, even though you have several more times the footage. You shot 7:1, right? Well, you had two cameras running most of the time, so you really shot more like 4 or 5:1 -- which is good when you know what you're doing or you know what you want.
Also I agree with the comments that there are differences in films and stories. Some stories are made in the editing. Personally, I like to create most of the movie in the editing. However, I still don't like to shoot too high a ratio.
I think good directorial discipline is important. I feel a director should know before yelling, "Camera!", what he or she wants. Ok, the actors may surprise one sometimes, but that's the exception.
Once, in an interview, someone asked Afred Hitchcock what he would say if an actor like Carry Grant said, "Let me try to do it this way."
"Would you let him do it?" the interviewer asked.
And Hitchcock replied (sorry I can't do the accent, "Yes, I would, but there's always the cutting room floor.."
Another anecdote (please forgive me, I'm getting old LOL):
An actor once turned to John Ford after doing a take and said, "I loved that take." He was very pleased with the way he'd done the scene.
John Ford snapped. "You liked that, huh?" He went to the camera and opened the magazine cover and pulled out the film roll."
"Here it is!" He gave the roll to the stunned actor. "You can take it home."
Also I agree with the comments that there are differences in films and stories. Some stories are made in the editing. Personally, I like to create most of the movie in the editing. However, I still don't like to shoot too high a ratio.
I think good directorial discipline is important. I feel a director should know before yelling, "Camera!", what he or she wants. Ok, the actors may surprise one sometimes, but that's the exception.
Once, in an interview, someone asked Afred Hitchcock what he would say if an actor like Carry Grant said, "Let me try to do it this way."
"Would you let him do it?" the interviewer asked.
And Hitchcock replied (sorry I can't do the accent
, "Yes, I would, but there's always the cutting room floor.."Another anecdote (please forgive me, I'm getting old LOL):
An actor once turned to John Ford after doing a take and said, "I loved that take." He was very pleased with the way he'd done the scene.
John Ford snapped. "You liked that, huh?" He went to the camera and opened the magazine cover and pulled out the film roll."
"Here it is!" He gave the roll to the stunned actor. "You can take it home."
HDkilledFILM.
Burnin' down the House
Wow, That's the type of thing that you never want to see from a director, I guess if your John Ford you can get away with it, but why degrade an actor just for saying they liked a take unless they had really crossed a line in the sand? Weak mang, weak...
Aroon_Narayanan
Well-known member
Adam, you mentioned early on in the thread that you were considering doing muzzle flares and other effects in AE. Now that shooting's wrapped, how many shots are you going to add effects to with AE?
Look forward to more posts! This thread has me riveted!
Look forward to more posts! This thread has me riveted!
taormina
Hates to Rent
Mostly I used real guns although I can think of three instances where I put in muzzle flashes:
1. Tom fires off a real .45 with a blank. It did not make a muzzle flash, as most real guns don't. I put one in to match everything else.
2. Put in a flash when we shot a gun at LAX for obvious reasons.
3. Put in a flash in the end scene in the restaurant kitchen because the place was open while we were filming.
I have actually used the video copilot ones for these. They look real, are pre-keyed, and I put them in in Sony Vegas. It's really easy and takes two seconds. I'll have my colorist tweak the flash color because it's a little hot in some places.
taormina
Hates to Rent
Yes the whole movie is on a single timeline. No noticeable delays while editing, I'm working with 8.0 pro.
I was considering rendering in reels but oh well. It is what it is.
dougspice
Veteran
I think the ideal is to have room to cut... what was written on the page doesn't always work out when you get it onto the screen, and you really want to be able to move or drop entire scenes if need be.
That said, PRIMER was shot on basically a 1:1 ratio and is one of my favorite films. Everything's a variable.
That said, PRIMER was shot on basically a 1:1 ratio and is one of my favorite films. Everything's a variable.
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