Barry_Green
Moderator
D-21's not a broadcast camera either.
Panasonic goes CMOS
- Thread starter William_Robinette
- Start date
John Godden
Well-known member
Another modest bit-rate AVCHD cam. Ohhh................. I can't wait! NOT!
LOL, Pani, Sony, etc. have this bit rate figured out for consumer cams. i.e. Give the consumer cams modest bit rates and then incrementally up the rate so we can sell em a new cam every year. Marketing 101 at its finest.
JohnG
LOL, Pani, Sony, etc. have this bit rate figured out for consumer cams. i.e. Give the consumer cams modest bit rates and then incrementally up the rate so we can sell em a new cam every year. Marketing 101 at its finest.
JohnG
John Godden
Well-known member
Kholi
Please post your thoughts after you've spent some time with it. I respect your opinion. Hope you find the holy grail of toy cams.
I just find it frustrating that all of these consumer cams appear to be 'hobbled' when it comes to AVCHD ultimate bit rate. I suspect this is not a technical issue.
JohnG
I hope you're right
...Mainly because I choose my camera based on this...I'm not exactly a pro...but when I decide on purchases I am aways reading day and night to find out what the best camera is...I know that I chose 3 CCD because its RGB are seperate and more true than CMOS...I'm not a fan of converters or approximations...I chose the DVX instead of the HVX 1 for cost and 2 for the fact that i'm not really liking pixel shift...I mean I know now that it can exist in most cams...but when I read something like that, I try to go with the one that stays more true to the picture being taken...
I will always choose to buy Panasonic because they seem to offer the best products and at a fair price
ProfessorU
Veteran
This thread reads like an extension of "The Innovator's Dilemma".
dantewaters
Well-known member
just read a snippet on amazon interesting read, and it leads me to what I've always said. Master what you have before even considering (to buy) what has just recently been developed.
So, if AVCHD can go to 25 mbps, why don't we have a cam even approaching that?
Digigenic
Well-known member
At this time, I only know of one camera approaching that bitrate, due for release in the fall, the Panasonic HMC-150
Bob Diaz, a regular around here also has the basic features of the HMC-150 broken down right here.
In addition to the provided information, I will add that while bitrate is important when discussing the quality of AVCHD; the type of image sensor quality/size along with lens characteristics, and other in-camera features that assist in optimizing image quality will be weighed in the results. I think that the image quality that is expected from the HMC-150 will closely correlate with the image quality of the HVX-200a and HPX-170. If that is not the type of image quality sought, then there will be other options to consider in the very near future.
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Barry_Green
Moderator
Probably for the same reason that P2 cards were predicted to go to 128GB, but we're only at 32GB right now. Sometimes the technology just isn't there yet.
AVC-HD is extraordinarily processor intensive, so my guess (and it is only a guess) is that the combination of processor power, speed, and price tag haven't aligned yet.
The HMC150 is expensive enough, apparently, that they can put in a top-end chip and support the full potential that the format is capable of. And maybe a couple of years from now we'll see the higher bitrates in less expensive gear.
Not read all the posts above. my english is not very good. maybe someone has said some.
MOS isn't CMOS,
MOS: NMOS and PMOS
CMOS: C means complementary, NMOS+PMOS
Here the panny's MOS is NMOS_only type
It has higher fill factor, bigger sensor area, so it has high sensibility and will improve the PQ. should be more advantage for the pixel shift technology
It's more intelligent, by multiple exposure it can shoot against the light and keep all the things exposing accurately at the same time.
It's global shutter!!!
Panny called it vmaicovicon technology, used in panny's cellphone several years ago and the 4/3 DSLR of Olympus and Panny use MOS as the sensor, called "LIVE MOS"
google "NMOS only", there is a PDF file talking about how nmos-only global shutter works.
MOS isn't CMOS,
MOS: NMOS and PMOS
CMOS: C means complementary, NMOS+PMOS
Here the panny's MOS is NMOS_only type
It has higher fill factor, bigger sensor area, so it has high sensibility and will improve the PQ. should be more advantage for the pixel shift technology
It's more intelligent, by multiple exposure it can shoot against the light and keep all the things exposing accurately at the same time.
It's global shutter!!!
Panny called it vmaicovicon technology, used in panny's cellphone several years ago and the 4/3 DSLR of Olympus and Panny use MOS as the sensor, called "LIVE MOS"
google "NMOS only", there is a PDF file talking about how nmos-only global shutter works.
It is 1/6", 520k x 3 pixels, still the way of progressive, so it still can shoot ture 24p based on the pixel shift technology, but with better PQ.
MOS has both the advantages of CCD and CMOS,
Here: http://www.dcviews.com/press/Olympus-Panasonic-MOS.htm
The circuit in the chip is more simple, so i think it maybe have places to make a global shutter.
all is my guess
all we can do now is wait and see
MOS has both the advantages of CCD and CMOS,
Here: http://www.dcviews.com/press/Olympus-Panasonic-MOS.htm
The circuit in the chip is more simple, so i think it maybe have places to make a global shutter.
all is my guess
all we can do now is wait and see
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Barry_Green
Moderator
Never seen "3MOS" before, I assume it's some manner of marketing claim to imply three CMOS sensors, just like they tag all their 3-chip cameras 3CCD...
Buck Forester
Well-known member
That would be VERY cool if it has the best traits of CCD and CMOS! I'll be following this one. Technology ROCKS!
NMOS-ONLY type is always there. CMOS is more common, and is one kind of MOS, just like NMOS is aonther kind of MOS
If Panny said MOS, it means the NMOS.
here is a japanese version about the MOS. Panny announced it several months ago in International Solid-State Circuits Conference in San Francisco
http://panasonic.co.jp/corp/news/official.data/data.dir/jn080205-1/jn080205-1.html
the sixth explanatory notes at the bottom said,
[6]Global shutter
It is a drive system by which all pixels of the image sensor convert light into
an electric signal all together.
I translate it by this site, http://www.excite.co.jp/world/english/
copy to the left, select the second item in the middle (japanese to english), press the button under the select frame............
and where the [6] note comes from, it said "global shutter [6] is installed in taking picture of movement though it moves. "
If Panny said MOS, it means the NMOS.
here is a japanese version about the MOS. Panny announced it several months ago in International Solid-State Circuits Conference in San Francisco
http://panasonic.co.jp/corp/news/official.data/data.dir/jn080205-1/jn080205-1.html
the sixth explanatory notes at the bottom said,
[6]Global shutter
It is a drive system by which all pixels of the image sensor convert light into
an electric signal all together.
I translate it by this site, http://www.excite.co.jp/world/english/
copy to the left, select the second item in the middle (japanese to english), press the button under the select frame............
and where the [6] note comes from, it said "global shutter [6] is installed in taking picture of movement though it moves. "
Last edited:
try some tranlating by that site:
and a photo, http://panasonic.co.jp/corp/news/official.data/data.dir/jn080205-1/jn080205-1-1.jpg
Eyes of the electron that exceeds person's eyes are developed from
the dark under the sun light and the dynamic range expansion
technology of the achievement first world * and image sensor of MOS ..
【.. is developed.
* Our examination as of February 5, 2008
【 summary 】
Matsushi*a Electric Industrial Co., Ltd. developed the circuit technology that increased dynamic range 2 of MOS image sensor 1 for the first time in the world by a factor of 10 million, and established the image sensor technology that was able to take picture of subject with an intense light and shade difference clearly. νMaicovicon® in the future;It corresponds to a wide usage such as surveillance cameras for an in-vehicle camera and security by installing this circuit in the image sensor and combining with our original inorganic material image sensor technology 3.
【 effect 】
There was a problem that a bright area was 1000 time 60 decibel about 4 in LD ratio the range of the brightness of light that it was possible to take picture of the image sensor, buried an area that was darker than this in a dark background, and became an exaggerated exposure and flew in white. Therefore, the exit reflects pure white pitch-dark when taking picture heading in a for instance dark tunnel for a bright exit near the photographer. The image sensor equipped with the dynamic range expansion technology that developed this time expanded the range of the brightness that was able to be taken picture by 10,000 times further by building an original dynamic range expansion circuit into all pixels 5, and achieved the dynamic range of 140 decibels.
【 feature 】
The main feature of the dynamic range expansion technology that developed this
time is as follows.
1. 140 decibels and 10,000 times expand compared with the past. the dynamic range
of the incidence light that can be taken picture
2. It takes picture, and strong, global shutter 6 is installed in taking picture
of movement though it moves.
3. The Hiroshi dynamic range is achieved with the single-chip.
A real-time animation output is enabled, and an external memory
necessary for the image data processing is unnecessary.
【 content 】
The image sensor of this development was achieved by the following new
technologies.
1. Two or more pieces are synthetic circuits that take, synthesize these in each pixels, and output it as for the image that sets one scene to a dark area and each bright area and changes the exposure time.
2. The memory device that maintains the image signal synthesized between from
taking picture to reading is installed in the pixel.
3. It is a simple memory circuit to enable the memory and the synthesis at high speed with one memory device as for two or more image signals with different exposure time.
【 example in the past 】
The dynamic range to be able to take picture of a current image sensor was about 60 decibels. It achieved it by memorizing two or more images of which it took picture at different exposure time in an outside frame memory to take picture of the scene with a wide dynamic range, and synthesizing it. Therefore, it was difficult to take a picture of smooth animation, and an external memory was a cost improvement factor.
【 patent 】
It is applying for four countries and foreign countries two.
【 remarks 】
This result of development is announced with ISSCC2008 of holding in United
States San Francisco on 3?7 day in February, 2008.
【 detailed explanation of feature 】
1. 140 decibels and 10,000 times expand compared with the past. the dynamic range of the incidence light that can be taken picture
The image sensor builds the photodiode that converts light from subject into an electric signal into in an individual pixel that arranges the matrix, and takes picture of subject. The range of the brightness of light into which the photodiode can be converted is usual about 60 decibels. It corresponds to 1000 times with 60 decibels in the ratio of brightness. In such a past image sensor, it is possible to take picture of 1000 times or less only subject in the ratio of the brightness of the brightest area and the darkest area. They are buried in a dark background if in subject, there is an area that is darker than this range of brightness, and a bright area flies in white and is taken of picture. This time, the dynamic range was able to be expanded to 140 decibels, and taking picture up to 10 million times LD ratio became possible. As a result, it comes to be able to take picture without the part of strong light flying clearly in white over the area that had been buried in a dark background so far either.
2. It takes picture, and a strong, global shutter is installed in taking picture of movement though it moves.
A past MOS image sensor adopted roll shutter 7 that drove two or more pixels that arranged the matrix by each line. There was a problem of distorting the image of which the photographer who distorted the image of the moving subject because the timing of each line in which light from subject was converted into an electric signal was delayed in this method or was moving had taken picture. This time, a global shutter by which all pixels converted light into an electric signal all together was installed. Subject with movement can also cut out the moment.
3. The Hiroshi dynamic range is achieved with the single-chip. A real-time animation output is enabled, and an external memory necessary for the image data processing is unnecessary.
It was necessary to memorize two or more images that change the exposure time according to an area where the scene is dark and a bright area in an external memory to expand the dynamic range of the image sensor once, and to synthesize these so far. Therefore, animation was not able not to be synthesized and not only to be output in real time but also to have become the factor of the cost improvement a necessary memory chip for the image compositing. The image sensor that had been developed this time achieved high-speed processing that was able to correspond to animation by building the dynamic range expansion circuit of each pixel into. It is possible to take picture of the Hiroshi dynamic range without using an external memory.
【 detailed explanation of content 】
1. Two or more pieces are synthetic circuits that take, synthesize these in each pixels, and output it as for the image that sets one scene to a dark area and each bright area and changes the exposure time.
The part where the part where subject is dark which is plain and bright doesn't do Shirot and it takes picture sequentially as reflecting at three kinds of exposure time. Two or more image signals obtained because of each exposure are sequentially synthesized with the synthetic circuit built into the pixel, and output outside.
2. The memory device that maintains the image signal synthesized between from taking picture to reading is installed in the pixel.
Acquisition and the synthesis of the image signal on three kinds of exposure conditions are done at the same time by all pixels. The image signal of each line is maintained in the memory device in the pixel, and output one by one outside between until outputting.
The developed image sensor can achieve the global shutter operation that outputs the signal taken at the same time by all pixels because an excellent memory device in the maintenance characteristic is made in the pixel and it crowds.
3. It is a simple memory circuit to enable the memory and the synthesis at high speed with one memory device as for two or more image signals with different exposure time.
The image signal acquired when the exposure condition is different is memorized in two or more memory chips for the external memory method. The area that the memory device occupies grows too much when this composition is built into the image sensor as it is, and it is not realistic. This time, it was made to correspond to two or more image signals with one memory device by devising the composition of a synthetic circuit. Moreover, the signal conditioning was able to be sped up by having built the memory device into.
* It returns to a top page.
【 explanation of term 】
[1]Image sensor
It is a semiconductor device that converts the two-dimensional image
projected to the taking picture part into an electric signal.
It is composed of the scanning circuit to read the signal of the taking
picture part and the taking picture part.
[2]Dynamic range
It is a ratio of minimum value than the maximum value of the signal that can be identified, and the unit uses decibel (dB). LD ratio of the scene that can be taken picture increases for the image sensor and the dynamic range increases by 20 decibels when LD ratio grows by one digit like 60 decibels every 40 decibels and 1000 times every ten times every 20 decibels and 100 times.
[3]Inorganic material image sensor technology
The image sensor with an inorganic material was developed for the first time in the world, and long-term outdoor use achieved the image sensor robustly (solidity) in there was not fading no sensitivity decrease Matsushi*a Electric Industrial Co., Ltd..
The main feature is as follows.
1. There is not fading even if the amount of ultraviolet rays considerably is irradiated during 20 years in outdoor by forming the micro lens and the color filter in the light part of receiving with an inorganic material.
2. Because a clear image is obtained for the part in the surrounding with digital micro lens that achieves uniform sensitivity in the side, the super-thin camera modulation is achieved.
3. It is possible to take a picture of visible light and infrared rays by
single-chip, and high sensitivity can be achieved regardless of day and
night.
4. It is high heatproof also in the high temperature process like the reflow
process etc. of mounting the chip without discoloration, fading, and the
transformation.
(Please refer to our announcement press release "High weather resistance, high heatproof, solid image sensor development" for details on May 14, 2007. )
[4]Decibel (dB)
It is a unit that shows the strength ratio of the signal.
[5]Pixel
Each minimum of the detection of a green red, blue that lines up in the taking picture part of the image sensor that corresponds to the film in the photograph like the matrix, color. One pixel is composed of the part where working that reads the photoelectric conversion element that is called a photodiode that generates an electric signal in light and the signal is done.
[6]Global shutter
It is a drive system by which all pixels of the image sensor convert light into an
electric signal all together.
[7]Roll shutter
It is a drive system by which the pixel of the image sensor converts light into an
electric signal every one line.
and a photo, http://panasonic.co.jp/corp/news/official.data/data.dir/jn080205-1/jn080205-1-1.jpg
Eyes of the electron that exceeds person's eyes are developed from
the dark under the sun light and the dynamic range expansion
technology of the achievement first world * and image sensor of MOS ..
【.. is developed.
* Our examination as of February 5, 2008
【 summary 】
Matsushi*a Electric Industrial Co., Ltd. developed the circuit technology that increased dynamic range 2 of MOS image sensor 1 for the first time in the world by a factor of 10 million, and established the image sensor technology that was able to take picture of subject with an intense light and shade difference clearly. νMaicovicon® in the future;It corresponds to a wide usage such as surveillance cameras for an in-vehicle camera and security by installing this circuit in the image sensor and combining with our original inorganic material image sensor technology 3.
【 effect 】
There was a problem that a bright area was 1000 time 60 decibel about 4 in LD ratio the range of the brightness of light that it was possible to take picture of the image sensor, buried an area that was darker than this in a dark background, and became an exaggerated exposure and flew in white. Therefore, the exit reflects pure white pitch-dark when taking picture heading in a for instance dark tunnel for a bright exit near the photographer. The image sensor equipped with the dynamic range expansion technology that developed this time expanded the range of the brightness that was able to be taken picture by 10,000 times further by building an original dynamic range expansion circuit into all pixels 5, and achieved the dynamic range of 140 decibels.
【 feature 】
The main feature of the dynamic range expansion technology that developed this
time is as follows.
1. 140 decibels and 10,000 times expand compared with the past. the dynamic range
of the incidence light that can be taken picture
2. It takes picture, and strong, global shutter 6 is installed in taking picture
of movement though it moves.
3. The Hiroshi dynamic range is achieved with the single-chip.
A real-time animation output is enabled, and an external memory
necessary for the image data processing is unnecessary.
【 content 】
The image sensor of this development was achieved by the following new
technologies.
1. Two or more pieces are synthetic circuits that take, synthesize these in each pixels, and output it as for the image that sets one scene to a dark area and each bright area and changes the exposure time.
2. The memory device that maintains the image signal synthesized between from
taking picture to reading is installed in the pixel.
3. It is a simple memory circuit to enable the memory and the synthesis at high speed with one memory device as for two or more image signals with different exposure time.
【 example in the past 】
The dynamic range to be able to take picture of a current image sensor was about 60 decibels. It achieved it by memorizing two or more images of which it took picture at different exposure time in an outside frame memory to take picture of the scene with a wide dynamic range, and synthesizing it. Therefore, it was difficult to take a picture of smooth animation, and an external memory was a cost improvement factor.
【 patent 】
It is applying for four countries and foreign countries two.
【 remarks 】
This result of development is announced with ISSCC2008 of holding in United
States San Francisco on 3?7 day in February, 2008.
【 detailed explanation of feature 】
1. 140 decibels and 10,000 times expand compared with the past. the dynamic range of the incidence light that can be taken picture
The image sensor builds the photodiode that converts light from subject into an electric signal into in an individual pixel that arranges the matrix, and takes picture of subject. The range of the brightness of light into which the photodiode can be converted is usual about 60 decibels. It corresponds to 1000 times with 60 decibels in the ratio of brightness. In such a past image sensor, it is possible to take picture of 1000 times or less only subject in the ratio of the brightness of the brightest area and the darkest area. They are buried in a dark background if in subject, there is an area that is darker than this range of brightness, and a bright area flies in white and is taken of picture. This time, the dynamic range was able to be expanded to 140 decibels, and taking picture up to 10 million times LD ratio became possible. As a result, it comes to be able to take picture without the part of strong light flying clearly in white over the area that had been buried in a dark background so far either.
2. It takes picture, and a strong, global shutter is installed in taking picture of movement though it moves.
A past MOS image sensor adopted roll shutter 7 that drove two or more pixels that arranged the matrix by each line. There was a problem of distorting the image of which the photographer who distorted the image of the moving subject because the timing of each line in which light from subject was converted into an electric signal was delayed in this method or was moving had taken picture. This time, a global shutter by which all pixels converted light into an electric signal all together was installed. Subject with movement can also cut out the moment.
3. The Hiroshi dynamic range is achieved with the single-chip. A real-time animation output is enabled, and an external memory necessary for the image data processing is unnecessary.
It was necessary to memorize two or more images that change the exposure time according to an area where the scene is dark and a bright area in an external memory to expand the dynamic range of the image sensor once, and to synthesize these so far. Therefore, animation was not able not to be synthesized and not only to be output in real time but also to have become the factor of the cost improvement a necessary memory chip for the image compositing. The image sensor that had been developed this time achieved high-speed processing that was able to correspond to animation by building the dynamic range expansion circuit of each pixel into. It is possible to take picture of the Hiroshi dynamic range without using an external memory.
【 detailed explanation of content 】
1. Two or more pieces are synthetic circuits that take, synthesize these in each pixels, and output it as for the image that sets one scene to a dark area and each bright area and changes the exposure time.
The part where the part where subject is dark which is plain and bright doesn't do Shirot and it takes picture sequentially as reflecting at three kinds of exposure time. Two or more image signals obtained because of each exposure are sequentially synthesized with the synthetic circuit built into the pixel, and output outside.
2. The memory device that maintains the image signal synthesized between from taking picture to reading is installed in the pixel.
Acquisition and the synthesis of the image signal on three kinds of exposure conditions are done at the same time by all pixels. The image signal of each line is maintained in the memory device in the pixel, and output one by one outside between until outputting.
The developed image sensor can achieve the global shutter operation that outputs the signal taken at the same time by all pixels because an excellent memory device in the maintenance characteristic is made in the pixel and it crowds.
3. It is a simple memory circuit to enable the memory and the synthesis at high speed with one memory device as for two or more image signals with different exposure time.
The image signal acquired when the exposure condition is different is memorized in two or more memory chips for the external memory method. The area that the memory device occupies grows too much when this composition is built into the image sensor as it is, and it is not realistic. This time, it was made to correspond to two or more image signals with one memory device by devising the composition of a synthetic circuit. Moreover, the signal conditioning was able to be sped up by having built the memory device into.
* It returns to a top page.
【 explanation of term 】
[1]Image sensor
It is a semiconductor device that converts the two-dimensional image
projected to the taking picture part into an electric signal.
It is composed of the scanning circuit to read the signal of the taking
picture part and the taking picture part.
[2]Dynamic range
It is a ratio of minimum value than the maximum value of the signal that can be identified, and the unit uses decibel (dB). LD ratio of the scene that can be taken picture increases for the image sensor and the dynamic range increases by 20 decibels when LD ratio grows by one digit like 60 decibels every 40 decibels and 1000 times every ten times every 20 decibels and 100 times.
[3]Inorganic material image sensor technology
The image sensor with an inorganic material was developed for the first time in the world, and long-term outdoor use achieved the image sensor robustly (solidity) in there was not fading no sensitivity decrease Matsushi*a Electric Industrial Co., Ltd..
The main feature is as follows.
1. There is not fading even if the amount of ultraviolet rays considerably is irradiated during 20 years in outdoor by forming the micro lens and the color filter in the light part of receiving with an inorganic material.
2. Because a clear image is obtained for the part in the surrounding with digital micro lens that achieves uniform sensitivity in the side, the super-thin camera modulation is achieved.
3. It is possible to take a picture of visible light and infrared rays by
single-chip, and high sensitivity can be achieved regardless of day and
night.
4. It is high heatproof also in the high temperature process like the reflow
process etc. of mounting the chip without discoloration, fading, and the
transformation.
(Please refer to our announcement press release "High weather resistance, high heatproof, solid image sensor development" for details on May 14, 2007. )
[4]Decibel (dB)
It is a unit that shows the strength ratio of the signal.
[5]Pixel
Each minimum of the detection of a green red, blue that lines up in the taking picture part of the image sensor that corresponds to the film in the photograph like the matrix, color. One pixel is composed of the part where working that reads the photoelectric conversion element that is called a photodiode that generates an electric signal in light and the signal is done.
[6]Global shutter
It is a drive system by which all pixels of the image sensor convert light into an
electric signal all together.
[7]Roll shutter
It is a drive system by which the pixel of the image sensor converts light into an
electric signal every one line.
Barry_Green
Moderator
So if this is accurate and it's a global shutter, I think that would answer Buck's question pretty handily. If there's no rolling shutter, then it all makes sense. Somehow I doubt it, I suspect it'll roll just like all other cams on the market, but looks like they'll be out in September so hopefully it won't be too long before we can check one out to see how it performs.