Camera Purchase - Narrowing my Decision Down to 3 Possibilities

A

armadillo

Well-known member
Hi, I've been doing a lot of research on the next camera purchase and I've been looking very closely at the options of Sony PMWEX1 vs Canon XH-A1 plus DOF Adaptor vs upcoming Canon XL-H1A... I have pretty much leaned away from the Panasonic HVX...

I have made a bit of a comparison chart and if anyone has any input or corrections, advice or just plain mockery, I welcome it. Hopefully it can help others as well.

As for my needs, I will be using the camera in many ways - primarily shorts and an upcoming low budget feature, as will as music video work, web content, keying and small visual effects... Pretty much everything but weddings.

Anyway, based on my research, the findings are as follows...


SONY PMW-EX1

Price $6500

Pros:
3 chips are 1/2" - notable improvement over Canon
Sensors are CMOS - slight preference to CCD (vertical banding on bright spots)
Resolution to 1920x1080 (superior to Canon 1440x1080)
Color Space 4:2:2 (superior to Canon)
Supposed to be great in low light
Better CODEC for easier editing
Great LCD Viewscreen

Cons:
Required additional $2000 for solid state storage to be able to function reasonably
Rolling Shutter - This Scares the Hell out of Me with some footage I've seen
Requires UV filter because blacks look like browns out of the box
Will get better DOF with my 1/2" chip here, but not nearly as good as Canon+Letus


CANON XH-A1 (plus 35mm adaptor, eg. Letus Extreme)

Price: $3300 + $1700 = $5000 (approx)

Pros:
Can spend the savings on lenses for the adaptor
No $2K storage required
Global Shutter
Will have an adaptor (and lenses) I can use on other cameras in the future

Cons:
Will lose light with the DOF adaptor (only .5 stops apparently)
Adaptor weight, volume and pain in the azz
Adaptor vignetting
Reduced Colorspace
Good in low light but not quite as good as EX1


CANON XL-H1A

Price: $6000 (but not available for 2 months)

Pros:
Screw the adaptor, the price difference is not too different from A1+Letus and now I don't have to worry about noise, vignetting, grain, powering the adaptor, weight...
Global Shutter and most other A1 Pros...

Cons:
Won't have an adaptor to tack onto other cameras if I want
The wait...

- - - - -

Anyway, this is where I stand and I've woken up the last several days almost certain that each of these is the best option at some point...
 
armadillo said:
SONY PMW-EX1
Pros:
Better CODEC for easier editing
Click to expand...
It's the same CODEC. MPEG-2, long-GOP. Editing will be the same, provided that your NLE supports the Sony variant. The EX1 version is a fatter bandwidth with variable bitrate, so you get a more robust version of MPEG-2, but when it all comes down to it there really shouldn't be a difference as far as editing goes.

Cons:
Requires UV filter because blacks look like browns out of the box
Click to expand...
A UV filter doesn't fix that. You need InfraRed (IR) filtration for that.

Will get better DOF with my 1/2" chip here, but not nearly as good as Canon+Letus
Click to expand...
1/2" gives you slightly shallower DOF than 1/3", but it's not in the same league as a 35mm adapter by any stretch of the imagination. If DOF is your concern, and you want a 35mm look, you'd need an adapter on the EX1 just like you would on the others.

CANON XH-A1 (plus 35mm adaptor, eg. Letus Extreme)
Cons:
Reduced Colorspace
Click to expand...
What reduced colorspace? It's 4:2:0, just like the EX1 is. I guess technically one could argue that there's the difference due to the 1440 vs. 1920, but within its recorded frame each uses 4:2:0.

CANON XL-H1A

Price: $6000 (but not available for 2 months)

Pros:
Screw the adaptor, the price difference is not too different from A1+Letus and now I don't have to worry about noise, vignetting, grain, powering the adaptor, weight...
Click to expand...
I don't think you understand this part very well. An XL-H1A is going to have *exactly* the same DOF as the XH-A1. If you want 35mm DOF, you need an adapter on an XL-H1A just like you would on any of the others.
 
Hi Barry, thanks for the reply. And I did mis-speak myself on a couple occasions in my original post. I appreciate the clarification and I'll address a couple points...

Barry_Green said:
A UV filter doesn't fix that. You need InfraRed (IR) filtration for that.
Click to expand...

That's what I meant to say. My bad.


Barry_Green said:
1/2" gives you slightly shallower DOF than 1/3", but it's not in the same league as a 35mm adapter by any stretch of the imagination. If DOF is your concern, and you want a 35mm look, you'd need an adapter on the EX1 just like you would on the others.
Click to expand...

Yes, agreed. I guess I was trying to balance slightly shallower DOF + better resolution and what I thought was significantly improved color against the DOF control of an adaptor but relative inferiority of resolution and color (or so I thought).

Barry_Green said:
What reduced colorspace? It's 4:2:0, just like the EX1 is. I guess technically one could argue that there's the difference due to the 1440 vs. 1920, but within its recorded frame each uses 4:2:0.
Click to expand...

I was under the impression that the EX1 had 4:2:2, as did the HVX. Am I in error here?

Barry_Green said:
I don't think you understand this part very well. An XL-H1A is going to have *exactly* the same DOF as the XH-A1. If you want 35mm DOF, you need an adapter on an XL-H1A just like you would on any of the others.
Click to expand...

What I meant was "screw the adaptor", I can now mount my lens of choice directly to the XL-H1A for 35mm DOF. I didn't mean that the stock lens of the XL-H1A gave me the DOF I would want - just that I would only have to spend on lenses, but no adaptor would be required. So for a slight increase in price, I get the same DOF control, with less weight, bulk, vignetting, noise and associated adaptor problems...

Which I hope to be a correct understanding of the situation.

Anyway, thanks for the reply and any other feedback to come.
 
armadillo said:
I was under the impression that the EX1 had 4:2:2, as did the HVX. Am I in error here?
Click to expand...
Yep. EX1 is 4:2:0. The HVX and HPX500 are the only HD cameras that record 4:2:2 under $27,000. Unless I'm forgetting one...


I didn't mean that the stock lens of the XL-H1A gave me the DOF I would want - just that I would only have to spend on lenses, but no adaptor would be required.
Click to expand...
Nope. You still need the adapter. Yes you can mount lenses directly to the XL-H1 series, but you'll still get the exact same DOF as you would with the stock lens (at the same focal length).

So for a slight increase in price, I get the same DOF control, with less weight, bulk, vignetting, noise and associated adaptor problems...
Click to expand...
Nope. With an XLH1 you'll still need the adapter, just the same as you would with any of the others. Removing the lens makes no difference, it's the field of view of the 1/3" chip size that causes the need for the adapter.
 
You'll also need the expensive EF adapter that canon makes to put 35mm canon lenses on the XL series cameras. Since the camera is 1/3 inch it'll multiply the focal length of the lenses over 7 times. It's great for telephoto if you have EF lenses that are longer than 100mm in focal length. For anything under that it's kind of pointless because the 20x lens that comes with the camera goes to 100mm at the telephoto end of the range, and it's not like you're going to find any EF lenses that are wider than 5mm which is the wide end of the zoom.

davide
 
Okay, so I'm definitely outing myself as less knowledgeable than I thought but I appreciate the information I'm getting from you guys.

My question to Barry is, then what is the huge benefit of changeable lenses on the XLH1A if you still need an adaptor for proper DOF?

For Davide, are you saying that an A1 and Letus Extreme or Brevis 35 won't give me the results I want and that I'll need the Canon adaptor? Or are you only saying that I'll need their adaptor if I want to use Canon lenses. In which case, I think I'm happy with a Letus and Nikon lenses...

Thanks guys. And if you grow impatient, remember we all had to start somewhere...
 
Well, I'm not Barry, but I think I can take a stab at that one. The idea on the XL1/XL2 line was that you had three possible lenses--the standard 16X/20X, a fully manual 16X, and a wide-angle. I'm guessing they kept something like this going on the XL-H1 line. Nothing to do with DOF, just making the camera more flexible.
 
Exactly. You can change the lens you're using, but just changing the lens does NOT change the DOF properties. You would still need an adapter if you want 35mm DOF.

The only interchangeable-lens cameras that give you 35mm DOF without an adapter are 35mm movie cameras or their comparable digital cinema equivalents, like the Red One or the Panavision Genesis. No small affordable camera is going to give you that. You MUST use an adapter if you want the 35mm DOF look.
 
All right. Thanks guys. I'm definitely glad to have that clarified...

And for my purposes, it seems to push the decision making a lot more easily in the direction of the A1, and spend the $3-4K in savings (compared to another camera) on accessories that will optimize the filming techniques.
 
yommytacoe said:
get an HVX. even though you said you dont want one.
Click to expand...

I appreciate the advice, but I definitely welcome anything you might have to back up the suggestion.

My understanding of the HVX as it relates to the A1...

Almost $2000 more (more than DOF Adaptor with Rails)
Same Frame Rate Capability (24F vs 24P seems to be largely much ado about nothing)
Better Colorspace - Gotta give this to the HVX
Better Audio Sampling
Weaker Zoom in Lens
Weaker in Low Light (could be exacerbated with an adaptor)

Anyway, I welcome any feedback.
 
I am in the process of selling my A1 to buy a HVX. By all means, the A1 is a good camera, but I have run into some occasions where some of my customers (broadcasters) do not accept the HDV files. This codec is simply not good enough. I am still on the “budget” end of the game, so my conclusion is that the DVX will be a good alternative for now.

I also believe that the HVX upgrade has solved some issues with regarding to low light.

Am I right in my assumptions?
 
Interesting. Yes, I am running into several restrictions on amount of HDV content in a program, etc... Ugh...
 
The A1 is a great camera. I don't find the limitations of HDV affect me at all. I shoot from corporate work to event videography and we shot a feature on it back in March. Don't let anyone tell you the A1 is a bad camera.

The HVX is an incredible camera as well, but to be quite honest I'm not ready to graduate to a tape-less workflow. It's not economically viable for me yet, nor is it right when I have to shoot a conference with no time to dump the cards.

If you're buying now, buy an A1 and don't look back.

-Kegan
 
Kegan Sant said:
The A1 is a great camera. I don't find the limitations of HDV affect me at all. I shoot from corporate work to event videography and we shot a feature on it back in March. Don't let anyone tell you the A1 is a bad camera.

The HVX is an incredible camera as well, but to be quite honest I'm not ready to graduate to a tape-less workflow. It's not economically viable for me yet, nor is it right when I have to shoot a conference with no time to dump the cards.

If you're buying now, buy an A1 and don't look back.

-Kegan
Click to expand...


Thanks for the feedback. Where can we check out the feature?
 
It's still in post and should be ready for screening in September. Lots of cool effects to be put in. The website is being made and should be up within the next couple weeks with screengrabs, BTS pictures, synopsis and HOPEFULLY a trailer.

I'll keep everyone posted.

-Kegan

/end thread-jack
 
Hmm, I am surprised that Barry didnt address the advantage of the removable lens on the XL-H1 when using a 35mm adapter.
Brevis is coming out with a relay lens soon and then you will be able to remove your 20x lens, put on the relay without an achromat and then mount the 35mm adapter to your XL-H1. Less glass= less light loss.
 
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