Reading Bob's write up on data for the HMC150 and recent issues that we have had with our Avid editor over the wherein Avid support said that the 1920x1080 isn't really a standard screen size for screening (atlhough that was what we thought, what are the standard SD and HD screens sizes? And does the HMC150 support these or also provide a screen size that is non-standarad (so to speak)?
Press Release: HMC150, "the new DVX"
- Thread starter Barry_Green
- Start date
Barry_Green
Moderator
The standards for displays are 1280x720 and 1920x1080. The HMC150 supports both of those.
There's also a prefiltered 1440x1080 size, which uses anamorphic pixels, which HDV uses and which is optionally available on the HMC150. But I suspect most 150 users are going to use the 21/24mbps mode exclusively, and in that mode it's 1920x1080.
There's also a prefiltered 1440x1080 size, which uses anamorphic pixels, which HDV uses and which is optionally available on the HMC150. But I suspect most 150 users are going to use the 21/24mbps mode exclusively, and in that mode it's 1920x1080.
mcsmooth
Well-known member
I would have thought the bitrate and resolution would be independant settings. Shouldn't 720p60, 1080p30 and 1080i60 all use roughly the same bandwidth? 1080p30 needs to deliver more info per screen draw, but it averages out to the same amount of pixels per second as 1080i60 and close to 720p60.
I'd be curious to know if the HMDI and component ports are capable of sending video out a progressive 1080p signal.
I've read that 1080 has slightly better detail than 720 on the HVX, but I am wondering if the difference will be less on the HMC considering its codec supports an extra 320 horizontal pixels at 720p. The added chroma rez (and bandwidth if 21Mb is only available in 1080) could make a noticable difference though despite what the sensors are capable of detail wise.
BobDiaz
The Professor
For HDTV, 1920x180 IS a standard screen size, but I wonder if your Avid Support Person wasn't talking about movie film.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widescreen
The 16:9 of HDTV is 1.77 or 1.78 if rounded up. Notice that it does not match any of the common aspect ratios for movie film, but is close to the 1.85 and 1.75 ratios.
See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/35_mm_film
First, if we talk about pixels per second, 1080/60i = 1080/30p. However, when it comes to bandwidth and compression for any MPEG compression, 1080/30p beats 1080/60i. The interlaced mode of 1080/60i just eats up extra bandwidth.
Now, let me admit to my bias, I'm no fan of interlaced. It has its place in the video world, but there are several reasons to avoid it: (1) Eats extra bandwidth for MPEG compression. (2) Movement on the screen has only 540 lines of vertical resolution in 1080i mode. (3) Freeze frames and slow motion do not work as well with interlaced as progressive.
If we look at the number of pixels per second of 1080/30p compared to 720/60p, the 1080/30p mode has 1.125 times as many pixels as the 720/60p mode. Not a massive difference, but it does say that the 720/60p mode is 88.9% of the data of the 1080/30p mode. So, assuming equal data output of 21 Mbps, the compression artifacts should be less with 720/60p mode. Still, I'm not sure this is going to be a big deal, because we need to stretch (enlarge) the image 1.5 times to fill the 1080 screen. The enlargement is likely to make any hidden compression artifacts more visible and the lower resolution of 720p is going to show.
If we compare 1080/30p to 1080/24p, the 24p mode has only 80% of the data, but each frame has a greater movement between each frame. I think the edge would go to the 24/p, because the greater movement just translates into larger movement vectors.
Clearly, 720/30p has 50% of the data of 720/60p and 720/24p is even lower. The big unknown is, will the camera lower the data rate for 1080/24, 720/30p, and 720/25p? I don't know... That should be an interesting item to test the came for.
EDIT UPDATE: Due to my mis-read of a handout from Panasonic, somehow my brain read, "DVCPRO50" as "AVC-Intra50". Sorry about that, so I'm correcting the rest of the post to fix the part where I got the specifications mixed up. Even with the corrections, it would still make for an interesting test.
In my dream world of tests I'd like to see done, it would be great to get a group of some of our best people together to compare the following:
Both resolutions of 1080/24p & 720/60p (As two different tests)
Shot #1: Outdoors, mostly static shot
Shot #2: Very Fast Action
Shot #3: Low Light with lots of image noise (+18dB gain)
170 using DVCPRO HD vs. 150 Using AVCHD
That would come to 2 x 3 x 1 = 6 different A/B comparisons needed. Assume 10 minutes per A/B look, that would come to 1 hour to compare all the tests. No question, it would be a lot of work to put together and do, but would be very interesting.
Remember we have the same lens and the same CCDs in both cameras, only the compression system changes.
I can calculate all this stuff on paper, but in the real world, the results can be different than the paper answer. Why? Because what might seem like an important parameter, may not be as important as one thinks. So, I have no idea how tests like this would pan out.
Bob Diaz
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Alex.Mitchell
Well-known member
The 170 doesn't do AVC Intra. If you're talking about recording it from the HD-SDI port, well, it only does 8-bit so you're not really getting full use of the AVC-Intra codec.
BobDiaz
The Professor
P.S. For those who didn't know about the standards used with the Panasonic cameras, here they are:
DVCPRO HD (100 Mbps): 200, 200a, 170
8 bits, 4:2:2
1080 resolution: 1280h x 1080v, color = 640h x 1080v
720 resolution: 960h x 720v, color = 480h x 720v
AVC-Intra-50 (50 Mbps): Sorry, not supported on the 200a or the 170, my mistake
10 bits, 4:2:0
1080 resolution: 1440h x 1080v, color = 720h x 540v
720 resolution: 960h x 720v, color = 480h x 360v
AVC-Intra-100 (100Mbps): Also not supported in the 170 and 200a
10 bits, 4:2:2
1080 resolution: 1920h x 1080v, color = 960h x 1080v
720 resolution: 1280h x 720v, color = 640h x 720v
AVCHD (25 Mbps maximum/21 Mbps average): 150
8 bits, 4:2:0
1080 resolution: 1920h x 1080v, color = 960h x 540v
720 resolution: 1280 x 720, color = 640h x 360v
Bob Diaz
DVCPRO HD (100 Mbps): 200, 200a, 170
8 bits, 4:2:2
1080 resolution: 1280h x 1080v, color = 640h x 1080v
720 resolution: 960h x 720v, color = 480h x 720v
AVC-Intra-50 (50 Mbps): Sorry, not supported on the 200a or the 170, my mistake
10 bits, 4:2:0
1080 resolution: 1440h x 1080v, color = 720h x 540v
720 resolution: 960h x 720v, color = 480h x 360v
AVC-Intra-100 (100Mbps): Also not supported in the 170 and 200a
10 bits, 4:2:2
1080 resolution: 1920h x 1080v, color = 960h x 1080v
720 resolution: 1280h x 720v, color = 640h x 720v
AVCHD (25 Mbps maximum/21 Mbps average): 150
8 bits, 4:2:0
1080 resolution: 1920h x 1080v, color = 960h x 540v
720 resolution: 1280 x 720, color = 640h x 360v
Bob Diaz
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mcsmooth
Well-known member
Although I wasn't trying to compare i vs p, I completely agree with you there. I'm still on a DVX and use progressive whenever I can (like most people, I would assume), so for the times I need the extra motion, 60p would be awesome (not to mention the extra rez).
I'm familiar with all the math, but thanks for making some of those points. The only thing we can say for sure at this point is that certain formats will have the potential to look better than others when using the same bitrate. With the exception of Barry's post about 21/24MBs being 1080 only, I've gotten the impression that you have the ability to select different recording "modes" to use different bitrates to extend your recording time (and picture quality following that). Sure 720p24 could get by with less bandwidth compared to 1080p24, but my point was simply that I would expect 720p60 to have the same bitrate as 1080p30. The 24p variations should clearly have a better picture over higher frame rates at the same bitrate (just like 24p HDV does), so I'm curious to see how 720p60 does.
These numbers might not mean so much once we see the final pictures. So far we have only seen AVCHD attatched to sub-par cameras, so we may find that the lower bitrates hold up well with a nice camera. The final picture will obviously be the ultimate determining factor of this camera's worth, we just have to wait a few months to see the results, ugh!
In regards to 1080 vs 720, I was just pointing out that this camera's effective resolution (at theoretical best) is 1440x810, so luma resolution might not be that much better at 1080 over 720, but you would get the extra chroma rez. In DVCPROHD, you only get 3/4 of the pixels in 720p (960x720), so there is a lot more resolution to gain going to 1080p in that codec compared to AVCHD.
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Daryl Auguste
Well-known member
This camera came at the perfect time for me. Small and versatile with long HD recording times. Hopefully its no more then 4k, and ideally $3500.
I was originally set on the Ex1, but with this camera I can purchase a new tripod and a 35mm adapter. I know the HMC150 and the Ex1 are two different beasts in themselves, but can anyone break down the pros and cons of each compared to the other? I am finally moving up to HD as I am getting more serious with my filming, and would like someones input.
I was originally set on the Ex1, but with this camera I can purchase a new tripod and a 35mm adapter. I know the HMC150 and the Ex1 are two different beasts in themselves, but can anyone break down the pros and cons of each compared to the other? I am finally moving up to HD as I am getting more serious with my filming, and would like someones input.
Thanks Barry. I figured the guy (who sounded inexperienced) was out of the loop on facts and I didn't make it clear whether shooting film style or video so we'll give him an out
)So, as I try to read as much of this thread as possible to digest the HMC150 (other than I haven't found anything about physical size - that is - near to the DVX100 or HVX200?) this thought suddenly comes into play:
"Is the HMC150 then the combatant-counterpart to the HDV market?" I've heard many in here refer to this codec as the "prosumer" version and from all that I am reading this AVCHD seems to be that genre. Am I close in this since the bit rates, file sizes, etc. seem to be similiar?
Lastly, other than the solid state (no dropped frames & speed to edit) is there anything else that the AVCHD would have OVER HDV?
"Is the HMC150 then the combatant-counterpart to the HDV market?" I've heard many in here refer to this codec as the "prosumer" version and from all that I am reading this AVCHD seems to be that genre. Am I close in this since the bit rates, file sizes, etc. seem to be similiar?
Lastly, other than the solid state (no dropped frames & speed to edit) is there anything else that the AVCHD would have OVER HDV?
Barry_Green
Moderator
About halfway inbetween.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Not fairly, because not much is known about the 150 yet.
I do expect a lot of people to make this comparison though, because here you're talking about a solid-state, long-GOP, 4:2:0 camcorder compared to a solid-state, long-GOP, 4:2:0 camcorder.
EX1's pluses include 1/2" chipset, higher res, manual focus lens, NTSC/PAL switchable, HD-SDI output, and variable frame rates, and extensive image controls. EX1 drawbacks include rolling shutter, hideous ergonomics, and the price of SxS memory cards.
HMC150's pluses include comparable low light and noise at a much lower price point, and no rolling shutter issues, incredibly better ergonomics, and it records to comparatively inexpensive commodity SD memory cards. disadvantages include no variable frame rates, lower resolution, no NTSC/PAL switchability.
I expect that picture-quality wise the EX1 will be notably sharper, but other than that they'll probably be quite competitive.
In the end it shakes out that you have to compare that one offers higher res than the other, but is going to be way more expensive. The other offers long recording times and cheap media, but isn't going to be as sharp. For the budget-conscious, it should be a no-brainer: the 150 is going to be extremely less expensive. It'll be at a bare minimum $2,000 less, and I believe it'll be more like a street price of $2500 to $3000 less expensive. Then, for memory cards, the commodity SD memory cards can be had for much less than the proprietary SxS media. And the HDMI connection means likely less expensive monitoring and easier HDTV connection than the professional HD-SDI connector of the HPX170 or EX1.
There may be other significant/substantial differences (not the least of which is that the EX1 is available today, whereas the HMC150 is at least 5 months away!) And editing the footage may prove more problematic on the 150 until more NLEs get up to speed with proper AVC-HD support.
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Barry_Green
Moderator
Of course. The HMC150 uses AVC-HD, which was designed by Sony and Panasonic together to supersede/obsolete the HDV market.
Yes. Again, AVC-HD is designed to replace HDV.
Everything. AVC-HD is everything HDV is, except bigger/better/improved.
AVC-HD and HDV are both long-GOP 4:2:0 at 8-bits. After that, everything is in AVC-HD's favor:
HDV uses compressed MPEG-1 Layer II audio. AVC-HD uses AC-3 compression in 5.1 channel surround-sound, or uncompressed PCM audio in up to 7.1 channels.
HDV uses fixed-bitrate compression, either 19 or 25 megabits. AVC-HD uses scalable compression at anywhere from 6 to 24 megabits.
HDV uses the old MPEG-2 technology. AVC-HD uses the highest-technology compression system available, H.264. According to Sony (the guys who INVENTED 1080i HDV!) you can match 1080i HDV's 25 megabits of quality by using just 9 megabits of AVC-HD. So just imagine; 21 megabits of AVC-HD should be dramatically better than HDV!
AVC-HD files can play natively on blu-ray discs or HD-DVD players or PS3 players, and many new LCD and plasma televisions have AVC-HD playback right from SD memory slots.
Every manufacturer is on board with AVC-HD (excepting only JVC). HDV will cling on as long as people continue to buy it, but seeing as Sony and Panasonic worked together (imagine that!) to develop AVC-HD as a successor/replacement to HDV, the handwriting's on the wall.
HDV, while being a pain in the patoot to edit, is still easier to edit than AVC-HD though. AVC-HD is going to go through some growing pains (just like HDV had to) before it's easily well integrated into today's edit platforms. It's already there in EDIUS and EDIUS Neo, but the "big boys" (Apple/Avid/Adobe) don't really have it integrated well yet.
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Wow, what a guess. I said to our troops, watch it will be right in the middle as a marketing issue, the "almost" of the biggie pro size handheld yet the comfort and feel of the "wonderful" DVX100B
)Thanks
Daryl Auguste
Well-known member
Having no prior experience dealing with SD cards, I'm confused as to how they compare in price to SxS and p2. While an 8gb SD can sell for an 80, a 1gb card sells for 20. The prices seem oddly out of sync. Do 8gb SD cards offer the same amount of recording time as 8gb Sxs and p2 cards?
Because there are no higher SD options I have found then 16gb. Will the HMC150 have enough SD slots to support lengthy recording times. I'm sure I sound a little bit dumb, but its been puzzling me for awhile, especially the strange 1gb cards.
mcsmooth
Well-known member
^P2 and sxs cards cost roughly the same, figure in the $800s right now for 16gb. They are both professional high speed cards that you pay a premium for.
32GB SD cards have been developed and should be available shortly (probably by the time the 150 is released). With ALL storage mediums, the price is never linear against size. There is usually a sweet spot in the middle to get the most space per dollar (often its 2-3 steps down from the highest available). If you shop wisely, you can find class-6 SDHC cards for MUCH less than you mentioned.
Keep in mind that recording times not only depend on your storage, but the bitrate used. P2 is often recording at 50-100MBs (depends on your format), which means the 150 will yeild > 2-4x as much recording time in its highest setting. The 150 also offers lower bitrates to jam a lot more footage into the same space (at lower quality). The EX1 records at 25-35MBs which is similar to the 150. P2s quality and editing should be superior to both the EX1 and 150 due to the way compression is handled. So there are different compromises for each format. The 150 will be the budget way to go once you have a computer that can handle it.
32GB SD cards have been developed and should be available shortly (probably by the time the 150 is released). With ALL storage mediums, the price is never linear against size. There is usually a sweet spot in the middle to get the most space per dollar (often its 2-3 steps down from the highest available). If you shop wisely, you can find class-6 SDHC cards for MUCH less than you mentioned.
Keep in mind that recording times not only depend on your storage, but the bitrate used. P2 is often recording at 50-100MBs (depends on your format), which means the 150 will yeild > 2-4x as much recording time in its highest setting. The 150 also offers lower bitrates to jam a lot more footage into the same space (at lower quality). The EX1 records at 25-35MBs which is similar to the 150. P2s quality and editing should be superior to both the EX1 and 150 due to the way compression is handled. So there are different compromises for each format. The 150 will be the budget way to go once you have a computer that can handle it.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Yes, it all depends on what quality level you select (6mbps will deliver 3 to 4 times as much recording time as the highest-quality mode). With a single 32GB card, the HMC150 can record between 3.5 and 12 hours on that one card.
The SD cards can be bought at any retailer like Best Buy, Wal-Mart, NewEgg, B&H, anywhere. They're just SD memory cards, the same cards that work in your digital still camera, your PDA, etc. SxS and P2 are proprietary high-speed memory cards used solely and specifically for broadcast camcorder usage; SD memory cards are commodity items used in hundreds of devices, available anywhere, at highly competitive prices.
P2 and SxS record about 42 minutes on an $850 16GB card, depending of course on what mode you shoot in. An HMC150 could record 42 minutes on an 8GB SD card in its highest-quality mode, and that 8GB card costs as little as $29. Or, if you put it in its lowest-quality HD mode, an HMC150 would need only 2GB to record that 42 minutes, so you could potentially record 42 minutes of HD on a $7 memory card.
Of course, by the time the camcorder comes out five months from now, those card prices may have dropped substantially. And, we don't know yet if there's any specific memory card restrictions for using the highest-quality modes either.
The SD cards can be bought at any retailer like Best Buy, Wal-Mart, NewEgg, B&H, anywhere. They're just SD memory cards, the same cards that work in your digital still camera, your PDA, etc. SxS and P2 are proprietary high-speed memory cards used solely and specifically for broadcast camcorder usage; SD memory cards are commodity items used in hundreds of devices, available anywhere, at highly competitive prices.
P2 and SxS record about 42 minutes on an $850 16GB card, depending of course on what mode you shoot in. An HMC150 could record 42 minutes on an 8GB SD card in its highest-quality mode, and that 8GB card costs as little as $29. Or, if you put it in its lowest-quality HD mode, an HMC150 would need only 2GB to record that 42 minutes, so you could potentially record 42 minutes of HD on a $7 memory card.
Of course, by the time the camcorder comes out five months from now, those card prices may have dropped substantially. And, we don't know yet if there's any specific memory card restrictions for using the highest-quality modes either.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Minutes Per Gigabyte:
HMC150: between 5 and 20, depending on bitrate
HPX170: between 1 and 2.5, depending on 1080 or 720/24
EX1: between 3 and 4, depending on 35mbps or 25mbps
Cost per gigabyte:
HMC150: as low as $4
HPX170: about $45
EX1: about $45
HMC150: between 5 and 20, depending on bitrate
HPX170: between 1 and 2.5, depending on 1080 or 720/24
EX1: between 3 and 4, depending on 35mbps or 25mbps
Cost per gigabyte:
HMC150: as low as $4
HPX170: about $45
EX1: about $45