Proposal to Panasonic: upgrade option to HPX 170?

I never said Panasonic should give anything away for free. But if I were the people at Panasonic I would be concerned that a camera due out next year would be selling for half the price of the HPX-170 with 2.5 times the resolution and twice the frame rate capacity up to 120 fps.

My question being simply: why pay $6,000 for a 1080p camera with a max frame rate of 60fps this Fall when six months later or so you could get a 3K camera at up to 120 fps for half the price.

Put another way: unless you would need the HPX-170 as soon as possible,
what incentive would there be to spend twice the money?

Is there anything the HPX-170 can do that Scarlett won't be able to do?

Please don't think that I'm knocking Panasonic. I love my HVX200.

I just hope Scarlett is everything it promises to be. Because if so, it just means more power to us, more options, more possibilities than ever before.
 
Even if it does go to market on time, there is a huge population of pros that still don't buy into RED. Maybe by then it will shift, but there are some folks that are locked into the technology that exists now.
 
scarlet is not going to be 3k for price, come on people we are talking about red, do you honestly think you are going to spend 3 thousand dollars and have nothing else to worry about, I doubt anybody that buys the scarlet us going to shoot with the naked cam, by the time you buy what u need you are looking at 7-10k, which is not bad for a 3k image, a lot of opinions and a year away a lot can happen here, we all want the highest posible image I just hope that this cam is everything people want it to be and if I may speek feely here I think there is some kind of catch with a release price of 3 k and being announced more than a year prior to its release, we'll see what happens


Nicholas Natteau said:
I never said Panasonic should give anything away for free. But if I were the people at Panasonic I would be concerned that a camera due out next year would be selling for half the price of the HPX-170 with 2.5 times the resolution and twice the frame rate capacity up to 120 fps.

My question being simply: why pay $6,000 for a 1080p camera with a max frame rate of 60fps this Fall when six months later or so you could get a 3K camera at up to 120 fps for half the price.

Put another way: unless you would need the HPX-170 as soon as possible,
what incentive would there be to spend twice the money?

Is there anything the HPX-170 can do that Scarlett won't be able to do?

Please don't think that I'm knocking Panasonic. I love my HVX200.

I just hope Scarlett is everything it promises to be. Because if so, it just means more power to us, more options, more possibilities than ever before.
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Nicholas, sounds like you answered your own question. You love the HVX that you own, you don't want to buy the 170 and then buy the Scarlet.
So you keep the HVX and wait for Scarlet.

Your camera is only a tool. If you can't do something with the HVX, move on.
If it's working for you, get more return from your investment.
I think we often make decisions harder than they have to be. But it is wise to think it through. Just don't lose sleep over it. :thumbsup:
 
Fair enough. It would be wonderful though if the LCD of the HPX-170 were higher resolution than 210,000 pixels. I'm just wondering if that's a definite or if Panasonic still has time to improve on that aspect of the 170 before its final release.
 
Nicholas Natteau said:
I'm just wondering if that's a definite or if Panasonic still has time to improve on that aspect of the 170 before its final release.
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Ain't gonna happen.

I keep clamoring for it, but the odds of it actually happen are probably about the same as the odds that any major manufacturer would offer a trade-in program. Ain't gonna happen.

(now that I say this, I do recall that Panasonic Singapore did this a few years ago, they let you trade in your old camera for credit on a new one. But... it isn't a good deal... it's like those car dealer "push, pull, and drag it in" promotions. You can always, always do better for yourself by selling it yourself than you will EVER get in trade-in value.)
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but the Scarlet does not come with any viewfinder. You add on or attach a monitor to the camera (I assure you this will be extra). This is the same thing we owners of HPX's and HVX's have been doing all along. So, while the HVX may not seem to be quite the camera the Scarlet is, it is available today and it does have two viewfinders, even though the quality may be only good enough for rough reference.
 
Good point. It's not really an apples-to-apples comparison. Even if you were willing to shoot blind, right out of the box with Scarlett, remember that it's just a camera, not a camcorder. So you need a way to capture what you are shooting.

The tagline for scarlet shouldn't be "3K at under 3K" But rather "the POTENTIAL for 3K at under 3K". Because that's all it is.

Don't get me wrong, I'm excited about the possibilities for Scarlett, but it's like going into a car dealership advertising a kick-ass, high performance car for a great price. Then you read the fine print and find out that's the price for the engine. Now you need to buy tires, a transmission, etc.
 
phudsontx said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but the Scarlet does not come with any viewfinder.
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Nobody knows anything about the Scarlet, other than a few purposefully vague sentences that give a general roadmap as to where they're headed. EVERYTHING is subject to change. Anybody making any decisions based on what was announced is being hopelessly premature.

When the Red One was announced, the LCD was included. When it started shipping, the LCD was an extra-cost option. (To their extreme credit, Red gave early reservation holders a credit to make up for the difference for those who had faith and reserved a unit).

Scarlet has at least a year, probably more like a year and a half, before it starts shipping. Check back in April of next year and you'll get a much more viable look at what it will be. Anything between now and then is baseless speculation. The Red One's specs changed massively between announcement and introduction, and Red proudly declares that all specifications can (and most likely WILL) change, at any time, for any reason, with no notice.

I'm as amped as anyone about what the promise of the Scarlet means. But you can't devote too many brain cells to it now; it's like chasing a moving target that you can't see -- just an exercise in frustration. Let them cook it in the oven for the next year, and check in around April 2009 to get an idea as to what Scarlet will really be.
 
Just wander over to the reduser.net Scarlet forum or the newly opened scarletuser forum.

Look at the posts. It's a little jaw dropping.

Posters are discussing pricing on various options packages.

And cam is still a block of wood.

I'm intrigued with Scarlet's potential as most people are, but there are posts claiming that Panasonic, Sony, and Canon are dead companies because of Scarlet.

And yet there is no footage, sketchy workflow, and its feature set isn't set.

The cam is a year or so out. And if RED follows past practice, that's optimistic
 
David S. said:
I'm intrigued with Scarlet's potential as most people are, but there are posts claiming that Panasonic, Sony, and Canon are dead companies because of Scarlet.
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I simply don't understand that attitude. I think there's a very solipsistic attitude that prevails among people who can't seem to recognize that their own personal viewpoint isn't a universal viewpoint.

For example, it'd be like a Mac user looking at the success FCP is having and saying "Windows is dead." FCP and other NLEs account for a ridiculously tiny percentage of overall use! Even if FCP was an utterly dominant NLE, Windows would still account for about 95% of the computer market worldwide.

So even if Scarlet is the absolutely perfect digital cinema camcorder (and I'm betting that it'll be in the ballpark, if not hitting the target squarely on the nose) I think the naysayers might find that there's a whole large market OUTSIDE of digital cinema! Broadcast. Network news. Local news. Medical video imaging. In-house video. Industrial video. Security cameras. I don't know how big a percentage of Panasonic and Sony's business is in end-user indie digital cinematography, but I doubt it's such a big percentage that the Scarlet would put Panasonic, Sony, or Canon out of business if they lost the entire segment to the Scarlet.

And yet there is no footage, sketchy workflow, and its feature set isn't set.
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The workflow bothers me greatly with the Red One. But only because that product is out currently (technically still in Beta though) and the workflow issues aren't resolved. With the Scarlet, the delivery date is over a year away. That's PLENTY of time to get the workflow fully sussed out.

Red is not stupid. They know what they have to do. Scarlet buyers are not going to buy a $32,000 Assimilate Scratch Cine system to post their footage on. They'll buy Premiere CS3 and cut the footage using native R3D files. Or, they'll use FCP (FCP not being able to support 4K isn't really a problem for Scarlet's 3K max, after all!) They'll have it totally sorted out, I"m not worried about Scarlet workflow. It will still take a massive powerhouse to process the footage files, but the quicktime proxies have got to be working cross-platform within a year.

The cam is a year or so out. And if RED follows past practice, that's optimistic
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I doubt Red is going to follow past practice though. They're learning. They've learned what they've done wrong, they've learned what they've done right. They're not taking reservations -- to me, that's a positive sign. I refuse to do pre-orders on my DVDs now because of what happened with an 11-day delay when the DVX Book was launched! :) Pre-orders and reservations are a great way to gauge interest but they're not a good way to get satisfactory customer service. I look at the "no reservations" policy this time as a good positive development.

Overall, I look optimistically at the Scarlet, for our filmmaking members. I don't think it'll do a thing for our wedding shooters, our event shooters, our video news release guys or our corporate film guys. But for indie/feature filmmakers and TV/music video commercial shooters, I think the Scarlet is going to tightly fill that niche.

I dread the inevitable "this or that" questions that will arise, but heck, that's gonna happen. I just caution everyone to remember: a standard-def interlaced PD150 was nominated for best cinematography at Sundance, and a standard-def VX2000 was used to shoot the theatrically-released "Open Water." A standard-def DVX was used to shoot at least a dozen theatrically released films, and won the best cinematography award twice at Sundance, and has been nominated for two Oscars. The HVX/XHA1/EX1 are entirely suitable for digital cinema applications, but they're also usable for so many more uses.

The Scarlet may be the ultimate mini Professional Digital Cinema camera (Red's words) but that doesn't mean the other companies will cease to exist; nor does it mean that an XHA1 or EX1 or HVX or HPX170 is now a "dumb choice". There's lots and lots of things that those cameras do that a Red One doesn't do at all. There are certain things a Red One demolishes those cameras at.

Keep some perspective, buckle your seatbelt, and buy the right tool for the job. Then, most importantly, GO DO THE JOB. :thumbsup:
 
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ProjX v2.0 said:
Sure you could shoot 3K with Scarlet, but what would you need to edit 3k?
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The Quicktime proxies let you edit 3K @ 2:1 on a modern Mac right now. You don't color-grade or finish the footage, but you can do a quick edit and lock the picture edit and then go back and conform to the originals to do the render. One of the members of RedUser, OffHollywood, locked a feature film and then went back for the final render; I think the render took something like three weeks.

Don't worry about the post workflow today. The post workflow by the time Scarlet comes out will be, presumably, much improved. Scarlet workflow will probably be identical to Red One workflow, since Red One shoots 3K in RedCode RAW, and so does the Scarlet.
 
For stock footage purposes the scarlet could be a niche as well. ultra-portable and looking as if a smaller handheld consumer camera... could work good in countries like Africa, South America.... I will be buying one for sure. I am not going to loose any sleep over it during the RD stages and as far as the other companies "being dead" that is highly unlikely.

JK
 
And I still work for clients that want relatively finished images at the end of a shoot. A lot of them won't give a damn about the advantages of "RAW". They'll just say, "why does this look like crap?"

One of the things I like about working with Panny's is that, on the occasions I have to hand over footage at the end of the day, most clients have to do very little post for their purposes. It's pretty enough right out of the camera.
 
3k at 2/3 inch CMOS chip with a 2.8 lens. Hmmm, am I the only one who sees a light sensitivity issue in the making? It better have technology beyond R1 to have a noiseless, light sensitive chip above 320 asa. Perhaps by Spring of 2010.
 
I love all the hype over a camera that no one has actually seen in action. 3K is cool, but what plays 3k in today's age besides a 4K solution? For that matter, what plays 5K?
 
Boy, I'm with Barry on this one (although I do prefer FCP which I've been using since v 1.0)

I don't know what kind of films the people who are panting for the Red want to make, but the market for that level of distribution is, and will be for a long, long time, extremely limited. I made a film that won four Best Documentary Feature awards in 2000 with a DSR300, and saw the film screened in a 500 seat theater at CineQuest where it looked amazing. Letterboxed 60i DVCAM!!!

I've been shooting some form of HD now for over three years, and not one of the films has been distributed in anything but SD... One 30 minute doc, shot with an XL H1, was made available through APT on D5 but I don't think a single affiliate picked up that version. Still, in 2008, the most requested deliverable, for television at least, is Digital BetaCam.

I can understand wildlife and stock footage producers wanting as much image quality as possible for the future, but for nuts and bolts filmmaking I'm really liking DVCPRO HD @ 720/24pn... It's convenient (P2 card space), looks amazingly like film, works in FCP beautifully, and satisfies all my needs - admittedly I make documentaries, but it's still story-telling - And I actually prefer 720 to the 1080 choices because it has a more tactile quality. It's about the LOOK, not the specs..

Although I will keep my HPX500 and HVX200, I think the 170 is a great affordable response to requests that have been made in this and other forums.. True, a better LCD should have been in the mix, but they aren't promising delivery for 8 months, so who knows what the actual production camera will offer.
 
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