Press Release: HMC150, "the new DVX"

[Barry_Green]

I like the quote on page 28, "Among engineers, there is agreement. When showing 1080i, 1080p, and 720p - 720p is better." Most likely he was thinking 1080/60i, 1080/30p, and 720/60p, because both 1080/60i and 1080/30p will not do as well with fast action as 720/60p.

I think that's a confusing statement that he made, and your interpretation is probably right as to what he meant. I mean, there's no doubt that 1080/30P looks better than 720/30P, and 1080/24P looks better than 720/24P. And there's no doubt that 720/60P looks better than 1080/60i. And if there were such a thing as 1080/60P, it'd look better than 720/60P.

So, while we're not in his head and we don't know for certain what he meant, the simple fact that a) 1080/60P doesn't exist, and b) therefore, the only likely 1080P he's talking about would most likely then be 1080/30P, and c) he's talking about broadcast throughout the article, it seems reasonable to suspect that he was talking about 1080/60i, 1080/30P, and 720/60P. And of those three, 720/60P slays for motion rendition; sports and live shows and such just look better in 720/60P.

 

[drdimento]

. . . 2. What do you guys think of the reliability issues raised ealier with the memory cards vs P2?

This is a "real" issue. With P2 the card is multiple SD cards in a RAID mirror type array which means if there is a failure it is 100% backup up due to the mirror image if you will. Like you I am a neo herein so I'm talking in neo language as an industrial scientist would when conveyed from Panasonic engineers through an industral scientific mind that knows little about digital media.

However on the SD card side with the HMC150 and all the counterparts that do the same thing, there is NO BACKUP. You record and if it gets corrupted or lost it's gone. I know this from experience. Will live and die on SD cards here with at least a dozen devices that use them and we've had many failures . . MANY! Some have just been the inability to do anything with the data on a disc but copy if off in groups of 10% at a time wherein trying to do more resulted in a pop up Windows message saying that the task cannot be done. But experience taught us that we could do it by taking off little bits at a time. However, the worse case scenario was that the card was not recognized, not accessible, and the data lost (pictures) some of which were over 100 miles away and had to be reshot.

The best solution to this RISK is the P2 workflow. Shoot, remove the card, copy off the card to some other 1 or 2 devices (2nd being backup) and boogie on. And for us that won't work. We tape a TV show and if one camera is lost when trying to do a "copy contents" and it would mean a reshoot. For the wedding videographer, try telling a Bridezilla that you are sorry your camera 1 missed the best angle of the "kiss" but it wasn't your fault it was an SD card failure !! But before you do, make sure your will and affairs are in order before you do because just the language alone will kill you. Don't believe me . . watch bridezillas on TV, it will make you think not once extra or twice but 10 times before going into this business. BTW, I've had BRAND NEW SD Cards fail after just 1 use! As for me . . I don't like them AND that is often why wedding photographers use smaller SD cards and lots of them AND two photographers for the "important" moments with BOTH shooting . . they've tasted SD card failure . . I know because I work with at least 1 to 3 wedding photographer a month (that's right we do 1 to 3 weddings a month AND up to 2 on one day) AND I've asked them "why" they don't use larger SD cards and the answer was as if I would have thought more . . failures. While I thought it was image file size it was not it was potential failures AND a couple I know have hard drive off loaders on site that have a little screen and automatically off load the card but not to reuse the card to have as a back up (not if but) when they have an SD card failure.

For this latter reason alone P2 is W - A - Y better . . not a little but at least 100% better and if you have any scientific or mathematical ability you will know that given the probibilty of a failure when there is a mirror 100% the probibility of failure is reduced by non-linear proportions . . in other words very very unlikely. Bear in mind that the probability of an SD card failure is significant and this is experience talking. I have about a dozen empty SD card cases in my center desk drawer that once contained a functional but now deceased SD card . . ALL of which had important information on them and had to be replaced . . not the card but the work. (

 

[BobDiaz]

I was under the impression that the RAID on the P2 Card was a RAID 0 system. RAID 0 is where data is put across several drives for maximum speed, but there is no second copy if something goes wrong. For example:

Byte 1 -> SD A, Byte 2 -> SD B, Byte 3 -> SD C, Byte 4 -> SD D,

Byte 5 -> SD A, Byte 6 -> SD B, Byte 7 -> SD C, Byte 8 -> SD D, ...

Notice how each SD Memory has to record only 1/4 of the data.

In the case of Flash memory, the chance of a failure is almost next to nothing, so using something like RAID 5, where we have error detection and correction seems unnecessary.


Bob Diaz

 

[Barry_Green]

I believe the P2 card is a RAID 0 as well. Not 100% certain of that, but I think that's what it is. However, as pointed out in another thread, the P2 system has excellent protection against write errors.

I think the Panasonic SD cards have similar protection. Not sure about any other brand.

 

[EMC]

Bob,

I concur with your comments re the HMC150. I got to see it / touch it Wednesday @ NAB and was very impressed. The fact that it has the same form factor, CCD's & lens as the HPX170 but without the aquisition costs of P2 media makes this a very attractive camera IF they can get the street price down to around $3.5k. The question I have is related to workflow with AVCHD "Pro". I believe Final Cut Pro 6.02/3 can handle this natively and that you can transcode it on import to ProRes or AIC, which is what I think most people will do BUT can you transcode it to DVCProHD on ingest? I can see a lot of people using the HMC150 as a "B" Camera with their HVX200a/HPX170's who are going to want to edit/work in a DVCProHD. If the low-light performance matches what Barry demonstrated in his HVX200a "First Impressions" article, then this could be a big hit with corporate, event & wedding shooters. I'm looking to update my Sony PD150 but need better low light performance than Sony's current sub $4k HDV offerings (V1/FX). Perhaps they'll respond with a more affordable fixed lens version of the Z7 soon? Unfortunately I can't justify spending $5k-$6k on a P2 or EX1 camera (plus storage) at this time for the type of client projects I do.

 

[BobDiaz]

https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/support/desk/e/download.htm#avchd

AVC-HD Transcoder
(AVCHD to P2 DVCPRO HD Transcoder software)

[SIZE=-1]This application software transforms AVCHD clips recorded by Panasonic camera such as AVCCAM into P2 DVCPRO HD format.
This enables users to edit the clips on non-linear editors which do not support AVCHD but P2 DVCPRO HD.
Available format: 1080i 59.94 and 1080i 50 are supported. [/SIZE]

* Notice
- Down-conversion or cross-conversion are not available.
- Please control the data size under 4GB when you export a clip to a P2 card. The export speed to a P2 card is slower than a hard disk drive.
- This application software transforms AVCHD clips recorded by Panasonic camera only.

If I read this correctly, the answer is yes...
It does appear that other resolutions do need to be supported, but it's a start.


Bob Diaz

 

[drdimento]

I believe the P2 card is a RAID 0 as well. Not 100% certain of that, but I think that's what it is. However, as pointed out in another thread, the P2 system has excellent protection against write errors.

I think the Panasonic SD cards have similar protection. Not sure about any other brand.

See, I'm starting to think that NO ONE at Panasonic even has a clue what is going on AND if it hadn't been for a Sony rep I would haven't even have bought Panasonic cameras to begin with - after all it was a Sony rep that said that I should try to get I-frame and only Panasonic had it.

At Vegas year last I was told by two Panasonic reps in the booth that the reason the Panasonic P2 card was reliable and safe was that it had 8 - 4GB cards in them in a RAID Array mirror. Then at the P2 conference in Pittsburgh last fall I asked the Apple lover guy there the same question just to rest assured I was safe as a kitten before dumping a bunch of money in P2 cards since we STILL only had the 8GB card that came with the camera and upon hearing that same resounding message of mirror and his explanation of all this high quality SD memory in the card being part of the reason for the high cost of the card I went out and bought a 16 and put 3 more cards in the budget for 3rd quarter this year.

AM I GLAD I HAVEN'T BOUGHT THE P2 CARDS YET! Knowing that the card then isn't safe AND our experience with SD cards (unlike Bob Diaz's experience or the design) our numerous FAILURES - - I will not only NOT buy another HVX with the P2 BUT I will move BACK to tape. I've had ONE miniDV tape failure in my 5 years of working with it and it had been recycled about 12 to 15 times on the TV shows AND the tape itself never failed it got caught in the rewinder and due to my lack of patience I ripped the tape fighting to get it out . . BUT . . for $25 a company in restrung it for me and shipped it back AND the tape worked . . SO . . I never even lost the material.

Thank you Barry Green and Bob Diaz for the info. I am now on the run )

Hey Robert . . where can I get those nice priced A1's ??

 

[Barry_Green]

Knowing that the card then isn't safe

I feel like I'm in the twilight zone. I just posted a thread elsewhere that shows the P2 card is extraordinarily reliable and was designed from day one to be ultimately perfectly completely reliable, and now you're saying that I told you the card isn't safe? Bizarre.

So, let's try this again: there is no more reliable, rock-solid, protected, better-engineered recording media than the P2 card.

Doesn't mean it's the system for you, but calling the P2 card's reliability into question is not an accurate portrayal of the situation.

 

[drdimento]

I feel like I'm in the twilight zone. I just posted a thread elsewhere that shows the P2 card is extraordinarily reliable and was designed from day one to be ultimately perfectly completely reliable, and now you're saying that I told you the card isn't safe? Bizarre.

So, let's try this again: there is no more reliable, rock-solid, protected, better-engineered recording media than the P2 card. . . .

I understand completely what you are saying Barry and I'm not arguing your point I'm simply saying that IF the P2 card isn't RAID 1 mirror like the Panasonic rep said then even if it is made of the finest materials on the planet without a 100% back up (which I was told it was - mirror) then the card isn't as reliable as tape and that would be correct and un-arguable.

As an example, I just went out today and shot from 8.00a to 3.00p the biggest contract that I've shot today in Hi Def and I have a 500GB hard drive full of work that cannot be repeated AND I really couldn't afford enough P2 cards to keep this project "on file" so to speak and thus without the P2 being a mirrored card (again, like I was told by the rep at Vegas) then in fact all my work today was at risk and I don't have a tape as back up . . that's risk . . and where the risk increases the reliabily reduces regardless of how successful one is. It only takes once for one to take a lot of heat and that risk = potential unreliable.

Again, I've never lost a tape due to failure other than my own doing and even then it was only lost for about 7 days while the tape was being mended.

Accordingly, I personally think that when an expert is giving advise it is important to explain the risk and the risk is . . if it's in a solid state form . . it's at risk. If that's the term for the "Twilight Zone" then I would agree.

As I say, last year I did 156 videos of which one was a movie and this year we are already over 60 and thus on course for a quantum year AND since I went into the video business in 2002 I've NEVER lost any project material due to a TAPE failure. On the other hand in the last year alone I've lost 4 SD cards personally from usage (all of which had to be reshot and fortunately we were able to do so) and two hard drives which in my book ISN'T and WASN'T a reliable format BUT considered it at least so on the capture side BECAUSE of the idea that I thought the P2 cards were RAID mirror - but if in fact they are not - I will not put my brides, my TV clients, and my event and rally clients at that kind of risk. Moreover, the only client video issue I have ever had was with a P2 format captured on a Firestore that not even Firestore supports. However, thanks to Edius Procoder we got the material converted into a "usable" format ) YES!

 

[Contact_Therapy]

I would venture to say that if you are having that many bad experiences with recording, it is either repetitive user error or you are using cheapo media.

I say bring on AVCHD and burn all these tape eating cameras.

 

[BobDiaz]

Let the P2 users answer it.

Let the P2 users answer it.

There is a way to answer this issue, let the P2 users answer it.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=1255829#post1255829

I just posted the message in the HVX-200 forum asking for P2 users to respond to the question of reliability tape vs. P2. It will take a few days for a sizable number of users to respond, but after that, all we need to do is take a count of the answers.

So, real world experience will answer the question....


Sincerely,

Bob Diaz

 

[Barry_Green]

then the card isn't as reliable as tape and that would be correct and un-arguable.

I would disagree 100%. So I guess I'm arguing. :thumbsup:

and thus without the P2 being a mirrored card (again, like I was told by the rep at Vegas) then in fact all my work today was at risk and I don't have a tape as back up . . that's risk . .

Your backup should be on duplicate hard disks. The footage on the P2 card is absolutely reliable. The hard disk is where the risk is at. Duplicate hard disks is where you would get the RAID you're looking for.

Again, I've never lost a tape due to failure other than my own doing and even then it was only lost for about 7 days while the tape was being mended.

And I've probably shot 1,000 P2 cards and never lost a frame. I can't say that for tape; I've typically gotten 1 to 2 dropouts per tape, have lost footage on tape (thank you JVC and your cursed "media changing" bug!), have had tapes that wouldn't play properly in one camera but would play in another, etc. I have heard so many users say the same thing. Jay Nemeth told me he's shot over 700 P2 cards, never lost a frame. The Iditarod shot over 300 hours of footage in 2007, never lost a frame. I bet you'll hear a lot of similar stories from other users.

Accordingly, I personally think that when an expert is giving advise it is important to explain the risk and the risk is . . if it's in a solid state form . . it's at risk.

As an expert, I'm saying that the P2 card is the most reliable recording media ever devised. If you disagree, that's your personal choice, feel free to disagree. But with P2 taking 80% of the tapeless market and being used by 840+ networks worldwide, having been thoroughly tested and vetted by the most particular and thorough testing by the pickiest of network engineers, having been embraced exclusively by organizations such as the BBC, Fox, and ABC, I'd think that if there was a problem we would know about it.

On the other hand in the last year alone I've lost 4 SD cards personally from usage

P2 cards aren't SD cards. Early P2 cards were based on SD cards, but the current ones aren't. And not all SD cards are the same! There's a huge variability in quality among SD cards, which is why the prices vary so much. And there's the potential for user error with SD cards. Ejecting an SD card while it's being written to can "pop" the SD card. It's impossible to do that with a P2 card because the controller protects against that happening. The controller prevents user error, and the controller ensures that the data you write to the card actually gets written to the card.

Moreover, the only client video issue I have ever had was with a P2 format captured on a Firestore that not even Firestore supports. However, thanks to Edius Procoder we got the material converted into a "usable" format ) YES!

The FireStore is completely unrelated to P2 in all ways. It's probably the riskiest capture media. If you want to talk about risk, the FireStore (which many swear by) is a far riskier acquisition media than P2.

The migration to solid state is underway and unstoppable. EVERY major manufacturer is offering solid state. Sony offers it. Panasonic offers it. JVC has just introduced it. Red records to solid state. Toshiba records to solid state. Grass Valley records to solid state. And Hitachi records to solid state (in fact, they just introduced a new P2 camera!) Even bit players like Sharp and Samsung and Sanyo and Aiptek and iSonic and RCA are recording on solid state.

I don't know why you're concerned about it. If using other media makes you more comfortable, feel free, but recognize that the rest of the world is going solid state.

 

[drdimento]

I would venture to say that if you are having that many bad experiences with recording, it is either repetitive user error or you are using cheapo media. I say bring on AVCHD and burn all these tape eating cameras.

Could be "user" error but if it is I, my wife (photographer), my son (technical guru computer science major) and four local photographers I know all do it and thus it must be inherent with the process. Above, I indicated the "why" all the photographers I know stopped using "large" cards.

As far as media, we have a mix of SanDisk and PNY. We did try one other brand from Transend on ebay but the very first one of those we tried lasted four uses and died and thus we went back to buying them from BestBuy. Also, we do use them every day and so they get a lot of use, my wife more than the rest of us, her in still cameras and us in data management.

On the tape eating . . hope were never have that and we haven't thus far since we started in 2002 pumping out over 140 videos a year beginning with the second year and most all of our productions are multicamera with at least 60% being three camera and the rest split between two and one camera. Plus every job that was of special significance we still have the tapes. I have several stacks on my desk and there are several behind me. All long term storage data on hard drives that we have assembled have failed other than the current stuff and all drives are either Western Digital or Seagate. We've been slowly changing all drives to Seagate since our success rate on all four of our machines has been phenominal . . that is, the WD's have this uncanny ability to get lost with the Avid software on the non-raid machines while the seagates have always been "alive"

Like I say, I'm not against solid-state and wanted/have it with our P2 but now learning that the P2 isn't RAID mirror like I was told - it will just be a matter of time before you will see our camera and P2 cards on ebay. Because in addition to 156 videos we produced last year there were another 64 that weren't ours they were for guys like USAir, Coors Brewing, several LARGE 5mm plus population cities, and these folks WILL NOT be happy if they pay us to come to Chicago, we shoot the video, then tell them "we're sorry but . . " The words they have in response are "sue" . . "fired" . . "money back" . . etc.

We just now have to figure out what we can go to and what our clients will accept. For us this is a bummer. We liked our HVX's and we liked the P2 card other than it's slight cumbersome transferring in the field just because we didn't have the budget for more cards till this year. (

 

[Okeefe]

There is a way to answer this issue, let the P2 users answer it.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=1255829#post1255829

I just posted the message in the HVX-200 forum asking for P2 users to respond to the question of reliability tape vs. P2. It will take a few days for a sizable number of users to respond, but after that, all we need to do is take a count of the answers.

So, real world experience will answer the question....


Sincerely,

Bob Diaz

Excellent idea, Bob. Nothing like an evidence-based study. Is there a way to do this with SD card reliability?

(Also, thanks for taking us to the NAB with you via Podcast. Excellent.)

 

[Barry_Green]

As far as media, we have a mix of SanDisk and PNY. We did try one other brand from Transend on ebay but the very first one of those we tried lasted four uses and died and thus we went back to buying them from BestBuy. Also, we do use them every day and so they get a lot of use, my wife more than the rest of us, her in still cameras and us in data management.

I'm sure you'll see different results based on different media, absolutely. Read the Google study on hard disks; they found that when you eliminated certain brands from the study the overall reliability of hard disks went way up. The implication is that certain brands were responsible for a much higher percentage of failure than all the other brands were (anyone remember the IBM DeskStar drives, that were nicknamed "Death Star" because of their massive failure rate?) Google won't say what the "good brands" are and what the "bad brands" are (they consider that proprietary information as a result of the massive study they did) but I think the collective experience of users worldwide can probably help us figure them out!

Point is: any media has the potential to fail, but better brands will be far more resistant than others.

All long term storage data on hard drives that we have assembled have failed other than the current stuff and all drives are either Western Digital or Seagate. We've been slowly changing all drives to Seagate since our success rate on all four of our machines has been phenominal . .

Exactly. Some are better than others. WD and Lacie get complaints, G-Tech and Seagate usually don't. But that's not any sort of absolute.

Like I say, I'm not against solid-state and wanted/have it with our P2 but now learning that the P2 isn't RAID mirror like I was told - it will just be a matter of time before you will see our camera and P2 cards on ebay.

I find this simply hard to understand. Let me try it this way: have you ever had any problem whatsoever with the media? Ever? Have you ever heard of anyone ever having a problem with it? It's been out four years. There's over 80,000 cameras out there, being put to work in every possible imaginable environment. Heck, Panasonic's own marketing campaign slogan is "When It Counts."

I guess what's odd is: you're deciding against it because of concerns about reliability, when in fact P2 is the most reliable recording media ever devised. So what you're concerned about is the thing you should be least concerned about.

If there were a legitimate concern, I could understand your position. But it's been proven over and over and over and over and over and over to just plain work, so... I guess I just don't understand. What could you possibly move to that would be more reliable?

Well, doesn't matter to me, of course, you're free to make whatever decisions you want on whatever criteria you want. But I stand firmly behind the assertion that I have never encountered a more reliable recording media than the P2 card. I'm a stickler for absolute reliability, which is why I harp on the 1/2-second dropouts in HDV, the potential glitches of overloading the HDV codec, and the potential for the rolling shutter to screw up shots. You have to be able to trust your hardware. The P2 media is completely trustworthy.

 

[drdimento]

I won't argue with anyone on solid state because I'm not in a position too. I don't know enough about it to know what is good and what is not. I just take my information from folks who are in the know and when that information was used in my purchase decision and then I find out differently, that's the part that burns me. Had I known this, I would not have migrated to HD via P2. As you put it I would have chosen what I felt was safer until all the dust settles on solid state.

My friend bought a Mac Air and has already lost the solid-state drive. We've lost gads of solid state and I'm sure we aren't alone BUT we are willing to not only admit it but look to folks like yourselves for help and assistance and answers when things don't work like we feel they are supposed too.

Lastly, as far as let the P2 users answer . . perhaps a more meaningful way to ask the question would have been to prove or disprove the failure issue not option of one better than the other . . again, one lost job with USAir will cost you their account . . not a project and thus one lost project is far more encompassing than the 99.999% no fails. One bolt on a jet will kill 400+ passengers but generally speaking jets are reliable, not many fail but the ones that do cost everything . . completely.

Ask this question, "has anyone had a P2 failure?" or "has anyone ever lost P2 media?" (because remember P2 is temporary) or "has anyone lost a major piece of captured media?" Or, ask all three! If there are none lost then it's totally 100% reliable beyond the shadow of the doubt right? Or is it? What about the people who never see the question or the people who never come here or the people who just don't respond.

As I say, we don't consider ourselves a big producer and we also know that our local news services all tell us that they weren't worried if the P2 failed, they just didn't carry that piece although as Barry pointed out, they tested, studied, and determined. We planned and purchased our P2 process for our TV shows where there are 3 cameras and figured that if we ever had a loss then we'd at least make it through that program since we had two other cameras and at the very least would have audio from the other 2 sources and could put up a "technical difficulties" at the very worse. But to date the client will not allow the P2 solid stated workflow because their only solid state disaster makes ours look like peanuts and had nothing to do with us.

As Barry pointed out the SD in the P2 is better at least that's what Panasonic told me too but as Barry also pointed out it wasn't necessarily early on . . we bought our camera in December 2006 which was probably manufactured a month or more earlier which is probably an early on machine. So, we''ll just go back to tape . . wait the market out and let all the dust settle on solid state . . and in the meantime use useless, worthless, tape that works for us with little risk . . that is not a failure to date (other than the rewind issue that I was responsible for due to lack of patience )

BTW, on dropped frames . . we have them at least on one of 3 to 10 tapes digitized and far less frequent than when we first started using miniDV tapes when we went to RAID drives AND dual Xeon processors with nice memory. We still have frequent dropped frames like 1 out of 3 to 6 tapes on the straight SATA drive machines . . AND . . other than for outside delivery clients (shoot and ship) all our tape recordings are recycled tapes some having been at least two to three dozen trips (which is certainly scary on that comment on "tape in the camera" comment which will change the way we work henceforth . . we'll mark a first in service on the tape permanently somehow so that we can progressively move old ones out because some of our tapes are at least 4 or 5 years old even though some have set in client inventory for a year or more until the project is previewed, correction edits, and final dumped to tape.

We'll keep following the market and go where it's going when it's there but for now we'll move back a step to lower our risk management and secure our clients. The HD shoot we did today took some convincing for the client although the editor (not use) was very happy with P2 . . but of course . . they are not responsible for delivery . . just edit and output. Financially, over half our revenue is this latter business and to put that at risk is baaaaaad news. On this project alone we had a brand new hard drive act up and for a moment scared us half to death since we had already trashed the material from the P2 card and this once in a lifetime event could have cost us this NEW national client. Whew!

On this latter point, anyone else ever have these new MyBook WD drives lock up the USB bus? This is the second we've had happen but it did come through and all 400 GB's leave monday with a temporary copy on a Lacie 1TB back up drive.

 

[Barry_Green]

and when that information was used in my purchase decision and then I find out differently, that's the part that burns me.

Well, I don't know who told you what; I'm the guy saying it's RAID 0 so ... if someone told you otherwise, then either they were wrong, or I am, either is possible. But regardless, it's still the single most reliable media ever.

If I ask the question of whether anyone's ever encountered any manner of complication ever, of course we're going to get affirmative answers. Obviously. But it's a well-known phenomenon that people never bother to report the good, but they run to shout the bad. If there were failures going on, rest assured we'd know about it here. We're far and away the largest information source for P2 users. Just google HVX or P2 and you'll find us at the very top. People having problems with it would be all over us.

The fact that you never hear negatives, and only ever hear positives, should be telling.

Anyway, we're off topic here. Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

 

[BobDiaz]

I've been reaseaching the reliably of flash memory and this is a complex topic. There are all sorts of flash memory types.

No question that the cheap stuff is junk. There's more than enough
proof of that, but the higher quality flash memory devices appear to be VERY reliable.

Of interest is a type that contains the ability to detect single bit errors:

High Data Reliability: Flash memory is very reliable and many of the Flash storage device types also include Error Correction Code (ECC) checking to detect single-bit errors.

For example, Kingston’s CompactFlash® cards have a rated error specification of less
than one (1) bit in 1,000,000,000,000,000 bits read (1 bit per 10^15 bits read).
• Kingston Flash Data Retention: Kingston Flash storage devices are rated for up to 10 years under normal use. Important information should also be backed up on other media for long-term safekeeping.
• Wear-Leveling Technology: Kingston Flash storage devices incorporate controllers
utilizing advanced wear-leveling technology, which distributes write cycles across the Flash card. Wear-leveling thus extends the useful life of a Flash memory card (for details, please see Kingston Flash Cell Endurance section, next).
• Flash Cell Endurance: For Multi-Level Cell (MLC) Flash, up to 10,000 write cycles per physical sector. For Single-Level Cell (SLC) Flash, up to 100,000 write cycles per physical sector.

http://www.kingston.com/FLASH_MEMORY_GUIDE/

Keep in mind that Panasonic uses SD & SDHC cards inside a P2 card, so if SD/SDHC cards, suck for reliably, the P2 users would have told us long ago.

The lesson here is, if you want to play it safe, use the Panasonic SD/SDHC cards in the HMC-150. However, I'm sure there are other name brand products that are safe too. It's just that we'll have to wait a year or so to see what users report.


Bob Diaz

 

[drdimento]

Interesting Bob Diaz while you were researching the data information and quality of cards I was researching failure rates to see if we were experiencing something out of the ordinary here and turns out out of the 40+ links we checked out, out of the 1,650,000 possibilities, our errors were identical to those of others.

Drawing Failure
Cannot Write Disc
Read Error
Disc Error
No Disc
Corrupt Disc

And like us the failures are on images. Apparently across the board with the larger cards due to hardware issues and the inability to read/write properly. It is interesting to note that all our original cards are still in tack (128mb, 64mb, and 32mb) but it's the larger ones that have been suffering failures.

BTW, that one (1) bit in 1,000,000,000,000,000 bits read (1 bit per 10^15 bits read) error rate may seem impossible but calculate how many bits are involved in a 1080 HD 1 GB per minute and you have a lotta bits moving around ) It's just not an itty bitty issue )

EDIT: A] Paragraph 2 the last word in the pun changed from "thing" to "issue" the former might have suggested one to believe that the writer was saying that a bit wasn't small when what was meant was that the issue wasn't necessiarlly small ) - - AND - - B] Paragraph 3 last word changed to "failures" instead of "losses" The latter seemed to suggest that data might had been lost during transfer however our issue has always been failure of the disc to perform as designed by either: 1) not being accessible at all; 2) accessible but unable to delete, modify, or use anything on the disc although visible, or; 3) unable to use anything on the disc but can reformat it and reuse it (the latter not being known as to the disposition thereof afterward since we don't track the 120+ cards that well)

 

[Contact_Therapy]

As far as media, we have a mix of SanDisk and PNY. We did try one other brand from Transend on ebay but the very first one of those we tried lasted four uses and died and thus we went back to buying them from BestBuy.

Not sure if you are aware but there are massive amounts of bootleg memory cards out on the market and if you are buying based on finding the lowest price off ebay, chances are you are buying inferior quality bootleg knockoffs and not tested, official versions. Even though they come shipped with very official looking packaging and labels, it is very hard to tell the knockoffs from the official versions and requires some effort to find the distinguishable characteristics.

You can find threads about this on almost any major photography board.
http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00Km2j
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=198298

anyone else ever have these new MyBook WD drives lock up the USB bus? This is the second we've had happen but it did come through and all 400 GB's leave monday with a temporary copy on a Lacie 1TB back up drive.

Again, you get what you pay for. There is a reason why P2 hardware and P2 cards are not cheap.