For close up shots of a prop gun: blank pistol or airsoft gun?
- Thread starter davide
- Start date
David W. Richardson
Chapelgrove Films
There is more to consider than just the look of the gun. A lightweight plastic gun won't have the same heft in the actor's hand that a heavier metal blank pistol will have. It's much more believable to use a properly weighted metal gun, if you can afford one.
dory_breaux
Todd Wannabe
Get gas blowback airsoft. theres little need to do any post for muzleflash, and there heavy, AND they have realistic motion (the slide... blows back)
Richard J. Johnson
Joystick Member
The metal airsoft guns look very real and you can pick one up for $100 or so. i just wish they made them with ejecting, reuseable shells. that would be dope.
dory_breaux
Todd Wannabe
Or, get a plastic one, fontd a way to weight the magazine, and paint it with matte black
stage_armament_solutions
Member
The blowback airsoft is a pretty good idea plus it's usually quite safe. The usual rules apply- no actual pointing at people, no playing around between takes and setups, etc.
The usual theatrical blank guns are good, too. The automatics eject the spent blank round just as a real weapon. One thing to keep in mind is that the gases and any flash from the semi-auto guns actually comes out the top of the slide near the firing chamber. With the revolvers the "blast" comes out the front of the cylinder and is directed to either side of the gun. This keeps them safer to use, as the blast is not directed forward towards another actor.
In post, you would need to add muzzle flash, and erase the actual flash coming out of the top of the semi-auto gun. With the revolver, you could keep the side flash and blast if you desired, and add the flash at the muzzle end.
There are some pretty nice cap-type semi-auto and fully auto blank-firing rifles and handguns that I've mostly seen on eBay. They use a small cap inserted into a reusable cartridge. The shells are ejected as the gun is fired and look good. What I can't say is whether they operate reliably enough for a lengthy take or sustained firing. The other thing is they aren't exactly cheap. Figure a couple of hundred dollars or so as a minimum. Plus the caps. Plus the replacement shells to cover the ones that will invariably get lost.
I have to disagree in part with chapelgrove. If the character is supposed to be adept with the gun and it's not a huge Desert Eagle or .50 revolver then the heft is negligible. A character who "lives with his gun" does not notice the weight, especially in an adrenaline situation such as a gunfight.
On the other hand, a petite young lady slinging a Thompson SMG around like it's nothing (as I have witnessed) DOES lose credibility very fast!
The usual theatrical blank guns are good, too. The automatics eject the spent blank round just as a real weapon. One thing to keep in mind is that the gases and any flash from the semi-auto guns actually comes out the top of the slide near the firing chamber. With the revolvers the "blast" comes out the front of the cylinder and is directed to either side of the gun. This keeps them safer to use, as the blast is not directed forward towards another actor.
In post, you would need to add muzzle flash, and erase the actual flash coming out of the top of the semi-auto gun. With the revolver, you could keep the side flash and blast if you desired, and add the flash at the muzzle end.
There are some pretty nice cap-type semi-auto and fully auto blank-firing rifles and handguns that I've mostly seen on eBay. They use a small cap inserted into a reusable cartridge. The shells are ejected as the gun is fired and look good. What I can't say is whether they operate reliably enough for a lengthy take or sustained firing. The other thing is they aren't exactly cheap. Figure a couple of hundred dollars or so as a minimum. Plus the caps. Plus the replacement shells to cover the ones that will invariably get lost.
I have to disagree in part with chapelgrove. If the character is supposed to be adept with the gun and it's not a huge Desert Eagle or .50 revolver then the heft is negligible. A character who "lives with his gun" does not notice the weight, especially in an adrenaline situation such as a gunfight.
On the other hand, a petite young lady slinging a Thompson SMG around like it's nothing (as I have witnessed) DOES lose credibility very fast!
Thanks guys. I have worked with plugged blank guns before. Since I'm shooting in NYC I'd rather not deal with the whole liability issue of shooting a very loud blank gun. Also, I was never keen on the smoke and flame coming from the side both from a safety perspective and a visual one. Does anyone know if there are any places where you can pick up non-plugged ones? I remember that there used to be sites in Europe where you could buy them.
davide
davide
David W. Richardson
Chapelgrove Films
Do what I did.....use the blank gun, but don't put blanks in it. Add flash and smoke in post.
I'd question whether it's even legal to buy or own a non-plugged blank gun.
I'd question whether it's even legal to buy or own a non-plugged blank gun.
stage_armament_solutions
Member
Oh yeah, NYC is a legal can of worms all by itself. There are way too many hoops to jump through when trying to use firing props. I think you're smart to stay "silent" for your shoot. The good input from your other respondents should help.
I have never come across an "unplugged" purpose-built blank gun and I agree with David Richardson that it's doubtful they can be legally imported, if they even exist.
Anything with a straight-through barrel, no matter the caliber, is potentially an actual firearm capable of shooting a projectile. These are nothing you want anywhere near a set, unless you are using a professional prop house such as Move Gun Services (for NYC).
I have never come across an "unplugged" purpose-built blank gun and I agree with David Richardson that it's doubtful they can be legally imported, if they even exist.
Anything with a straight-through barrel, no matter the caliber, is potentially an actual firearm capable of shooting a projectile. These are nothing you want anywhere near a set, unless you are using a professional prop house such as Move Gun Services (for NYC).
Sprocketboy
Well-known member
Besides legal issues. How does one remove the orange tip? In post? Or do you paint over it with acrylic paint or permanent black marker? I've done the latter, but you can't get too close with the camera.
I like to know what others are doing to remove the orange tip.
I like to know what others are doing to remove the orange tip.
I used to have a blank firing walther p22 that I got from a guy in germany. The barrel was plugged with a metal sluice that allowed gas and muzzle flash to come out the front but not any materials. It was really great as you could have looking down the barrel shots.
I think it'd be best to black out the orange plug in post, that way if a cop comes by and checks it out they can see that the gun is abiding by the federal standards and everything.
I think I've decided on getting a Tokyo Mauri cz-75. Does anyone have experience with their products? Also, where should I go to get the sound of a metal slide getting pulled back?
davide
I think it'd be best to black out the orange plug in post, that way if a cop comes by and checks it out they can see that the gun is abiding by the federal standards and everything.
I think I've decided on getting a Tokyo Mauri cz-75. Does anyone have experience with their products? Also, where should I go to get the sound of a metal slide getting pulled back?
davide
David W. Richardson
Chapelgrove Films
If gas and flash can come out the barrel, and if you can look down the barrel and not see the sluice, then something could be put into the barrel that would essentially become a bullet -- and presto! You have a deadly weapon.
Yes, I think that's part of the reason why they are illegal in the U.S. The other reason for the blaze orange barrel is so that people won't confuse them as easily with real guns.
i believe the tokyo mauri gun has a metal slide and will sound just like it's real counterpart. i recently shot a piece which used about 25 airsoft weapons and we did a day of shooting (video not the guns) with real guns for close ups of shells being chambered and ejected. we had a professional gun handler on set and he brought along an avid gun enthusiast. at one point we had 6 guns lined up against a wall being prepped for close ups of magazines being loaded, 3 were airsoft and 3 were real steal. we asked the enthusiast to pick out the real ones from the airsoft and he was wrong 3 out of 3 times. he even got right up to them and held all 6. it wasn't until he opened the chambers that he could tell the difference. granted these are $700-$1000 airsoft guns. the point being, they look real enough, handle and feel real enough and if treated carefully are very safe. even the $100 ones.
thanks
-k-
thanks
-k-
stage_armament_solutions
Member
For theatrical use you can paint over the orange ends. They cannot be sold that way, nor should they be painted over by a casual user.
When painting, you are committing to painting the whole assembly: barrel on a rifle, shotgun, or revolver, and the slide on a semi-auto pistol. Anything less looks pretty bad as Sprocketboy learned.
Like many things, just because you can, doesn't always mean you should. Know your surroundings.
There is nothing wrong with keeping the orange tips during filming if you are concerned about exposing your cast and crew to hassles and misunderstandings.
When painting, you are committing to painting the whole assembly: barrel on a rifle, shotgun, or revolver, and the slide on a semi-auto pistol. Anything less looks pretty bad as Sprocketboy learned.
Like many things, just because you can, doesn't always mean you should. Know your surroundings.
There is nothing wrong with keeping the orange tips during filming if you are concerned about exposing your cast and crew to hassles and misunderstandings.
Danstin Studios
Active member
Painting the orange tip is not illegal where I am, in Florida, but to find out the legality of it in your area, try checking out this board to find out more.
I know that in the six boroughs of New York airsoft guns are outlawed, but that is one of the few places in the United States.
I personally play a good amount of airsoft, and I've used them multiple times to portray a gun in a movie. Frankly, they're very convincing.
Many of the things that make even a cheaper replica stand out to us are negated by the effect of the camera. The shinier surface and lack of surface roughness don't show up as much, but with some experimenting you should be able to find something that looks good.
If you buy an airsoft replica, many of the times you're tempted to spring for the higher-end models because, frankly, it's a cheap hobby compared to ours and we feel like we should be paying for what we're getting.
But commonly, the cheaper models are chinese clones of the more expensive models, and what you're paying extra for is better precision and tolerances on the internal materials, as well as a more complete factory testing before being shipped. However, this isn't always true.
A good resource is to look out for online reviews of this gun. Just like filmmaking, airsoft has a large repository of online sites that are geared towards reviews and discussion of the sport, and many of them will be more than willing to entertain any questions you have about the gun and it's qualities for your movie.
Check out a review of the particularly gun you are looking at here. It contains a short clip of the gun in action being cocked and fired, and has some complaints and positives on the gun itself. Much of the article is on it's performance, but the first part deals with it's looks and design, as well as its semblance to reality.
Tokyo Marui is a high-quality brand, and they are very well known for their quality in design. If you only intend this for one shoot though, feel free to buy something cheaper, as with a good coat of paint they will look somewhat similar. If you intend to have it fired however, the Tokyo Marui is a good choice.
I know that in the six boroughs of New York airsoft guns are outlawed, but that is one of the few places in the United States.
I personally play a good amount of airsoft, and I've used them multiple times to portray a gun in a movie. Frankly, they're very convincing.
Many of the things that make even a cheaper replica stand out to us are negated by the effect of the camera. The shinier surface and lack of surface roughness don't show up as much, but with some experimenting you should be able to find something that looks good.
If you buy an airsoft replica, many of the times you're tempted to spring for the higher-end models because, frankly, it's a cheap hobby compared to ours and we feel like we should be paying for what we're getting.
But commonly, the cheaper models are chinese clones of the more expensive models, and what you're paying extra for is better precision and tolerances on the internal materials, as well as a more complete factory testing before being shipped. However, this isn't always true.
A good resource is to look out for online reviews of this gun. Just like filmmaking, airsoft has a large repository of online sites that are geared towards reviews and discussion of the sport, and many of them will be more than willing to entertain any questions you have about the gun and it's qualities for your movie.
Check out a review of the particularly gun you are looking at here. It contains a short clip of the gun in action being cocked and fired, and has some complaints and positives on the gun itself. Much of the article is on it's performance, but the first part deals with it's looks and design, as well as its semblance to reality.
Tokyo Marui is a high-quality brand, and they are very well known for their quality in design. If you only intend this for one shoot though, feel free to buy something cheaper, as with a good coat of paint they will look somewhat similar. If you intend to have it fired however, the Tokyo Marui is a good choice.
Richard J. Johnson
Joystick Member
we were using blanks on a video shoot without permission of course and at least 50 cops showed up and had all of us at gunpoint. We did'nt get locked up but when the gheto bird comes flying around it is usually bad. I say that to say this, I only use Airsoft now.
Sprocketboy
Well-known member
I would dare to say that even if you are using an airsoft with an orange tip you better inform everyone and anyone within a visible distance. A quick glance from 50 yards away make those guns look very real. Its always good to have a couple PAs relaying to the public that a film shoot is in progress.
Davide,
I sympathize with your plight, you living in NY. Here in West Virginia, we really don't have that kind of problem. I recently shot a short film, for a filmmaking class I'm taking, in which the heroine shoots the bad guy. For the shot, I simply had her use my Colt 1911A1 loaded with a blank cartridge. Of course, safety precautions were taken and the pistol was at no time actually pointed at anyone. But, like I said, I live in West Virginia and we don't have the sort of restrictions you guys have to put up with.
I sympathize with your plight, you living in NY. Here in West Virginia, we really don't have that kind of problem. I recently shot a short film, for a filmmaking class I'm taking, in which the heroine shoots the bad guy. For the shot, I simply had her use my Colt 1911A1 loaded with a blank cartridge. Of course, safety precautions were taken and the pistol was at no time actually pointed at anyone. But, like I said, I live in West Virginia and we don't have the sort of restrictions you guys have to put up with.