HorseFilms
Look ma no hands
My parents did. I bought it from them a few years ago when my Camry died.
The American car industry DESERVES to die
- Thread starter OldCorpse
- Start date
My parents did. I bought it from them a few years ago when my Camry died.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Okay, this is ridiculous. Overall movement? Need we compare a, say, 2008 Malibu against a 1984 Chevette? or the Chevy Monza? Or the Vega? or the Pinto? Or the Omni? or the K-car? American cars are leagues better than they used to be. May not match the best of the world, but come on, they're much, much, much better than they were when they hit bottom in the early '80's.
Anyway, what's with all the negative rants in the cafe recently? That isn't really what we set this place up for. Let's cut back on the griping and try to find some more productive direction to head in...
JasonFox
Internet Sensation
I can reminisce about learning to drive stick in a 1980 Pinto wagon with brown, metal flake paint and custom mag wheels. My poor dad -- trying his best to turn the family hauler into the cars of his youth. Thankfully, he's got a '93 LX 5.0 now.
Also, does this ban on negativity preclude me from venting about having my CC number swiped for the second time is four months?
Postmaster
Dark Side of the Camera
I had a 94 Pontiac Transport and a 92 Voyager and I loved that roomy veciles.
You open the back door and it is like a second garage. Heck I had a complete engine in there for almost a year and still room for 5 poeple and some other stuff. Try that on a Sebring or BMW.
I also love the smooth relaxed and layed back way american cars drive (our German cars are like a over excidet kitchen stool on a Go-Cart compared to those). Here in Germany a car has to be like a "race car" in every aspect. Hard, low, quick, tight. Beeing a big guy I rather love a mobile living room than those soap boxes.
The problem over here is: Gas price are olmost twice as high as in the US.
They charge insane tax and insurance for american cars.
Prices for repair and spare parts are redicolus.
Now I have a 1941 Chevy for the summer. I can fix everything my selfe cause it is pretty simple. Parts are cheap and aviable.
For the Winter I have a 1959 Opel wich looks like a shrunk 59 Buick, gets great mileage (way over 25 mpg) and is a absolute no-brainer for daily driving.
Frank
You open the back door and it is like a second garage. Heck I had a complete engine in there for almost a year and still room for 5 poeple and some other stuff. Try that on a Sebring or BMW.
I also love the smooth relaxed and layed back way american cars drive (our German cars are like a over excidet kitchen stool on a Go-Cart compared to those). Here in Germany a car has to be like a "race car" in every aspect. Hard, low, quick, tight. Beeing a big guy I rather love a mobile living room than those soap boxes.
The problem over here is: Gas price are olmost twice as high as in the US.
They charge insane tax and insurance for american cars.
Prices for repair and spare parts are redicolus.
Now I have a 1941 Chevy for the summer. I can fix everything my selfe cause it is pretty simple. Parts are cheap and aviable.
For the Winter I have a 1959 Opel wich looks like a shrunk 59 Buick, gets great mileage (way over 25 mpg) and is a absolute no-brainer for daily driving.
Frank
DivotDan
Veteran
(Comment deleted to comply with David and Barry's wishes. :engel017: )
I will say this. All of these cars are at least 5 years old, with my truck being 12 yrs old (note: American made, 170K, only regular maintenance, still running strong) and all were purchased before everyone decided that they were bad for the environment and more importantly before gas tripled in price. Primarily due to the later, combined with the distance I have to drive each day, I have been carpooling with 2 other people for the last 1 1/2 years. It has save me a ton of money. Not to mention it's just nice to ride 2/3 of the time.
So no, I have no intention of trading these cars in or buying a 40 MPG go-cart with no interior space (for gear and such) or a Prius (which is probably one of the most NON-green cars you can buy). I will say that I think people have a responsibility to try and be as sustainable as possible. My car situation is just what it is, and with the exception of the Explorer (my wifes car, and if you don't want her to drive it...then I'll let you be the one to take it away from her :violent5: ) each one serves a purpose. I do buy local organic food, I make sure my car fluids (which I change myself) are properly disposed, we use only CF light bulbs in our house, turn them off when we are not in the room, and I don't wash my cars or water my lawn (we are still in a drought in GA). I think doing the little things like this, taking short showers, turning the water off when you are brushing your teeth, buying and using reusable products to cut down on waste, etc....are the best ways to be a responsible citizen. :engel017:
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Let's really not have a global warming debate here, folks.
I agree with Barry; I think the spate of rant threads in the Cafe is getting to be a bit much. Let's lighten the tone.
I agree with Barry; I think the spate of rant threads in the Cafe is getting to be a bit much. Let's lighten the tone.
Jeff Anderson
Custom Title!
On a positive note I just got an 04 Nissan quest and the thing is unbelievable!!! More power than I really need and I can cram a whole bunch of production equipment in it and have room for 4 people in its fancy pants leather captains chairs. And I never thought I would care but power sliding door and power liftgate rule. I still miss my '92 Jimmy though. Now that was a solid truck. Sadly it sits in my garage and just collects dust and gets in the way. Gonna clean it out this weekend and send it off the Cancer Society too make some room. I think I may put in a small climbing wall!
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Kegan
Spam Assassin Mod
As for Japanese cars not being rear wheel drive, my '02 Lexus IS300 is rear wheel and don't I know it driving it in winter this year! I don't think I can ever drive a front wheel car again, rear wheel is WAY too much fun. The control, handling, the kick - it's all just too cool.
-Kegan
-Kegan
Our Q45 is decidedly rear-wheel drive. As far as I can tell, it is indeed from Japan.
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OT - "I agree with Barry; I think the spate of rant threads in the Cafe is getting to be a bit much. Let's lighten the tone."
I honestly don't get it. Posting guidelines say "no politics, no religion, no personal attacks, no spamming, no off topic posting". This is all very sensible, and commendable.
The Cafe says "yap whatever you want about" - which, apart from the things excluded above, means we can talk about whatever else.
Yet recently there's been a trend to lock up threads for no clear reason. I know I'm not the only one who is puzzled by it. Charli started a thread about hospital bills, and it was going fine, without going against any of the posting guidelines and yet, it was locked - she too was puzzled by this.
Now this: "I agree with Barry; I think the spate of rant threads in the Cafe is getting to be a bit much. Let's lighten the tone." Say what??? Now somehow it is against the rules of the cafe to have "negative rants" (whatever those are)? Huh? Where did this come from? Not from posting guidelines, that's for sure! Certainly nobody can say there was even any issue of "in bad taste", let alone breaking any rules.
If there is to be no more "negative rants" (which will hopefully be defined as to what constitutes "negative" and "rants"), then let those be put into the posting guidelines. And while we are at it, any other "rules" so that they don't take us by surprise. If from now on, only "happy smiling pink bon-bon" posts are allowed - fine, but let's make it explicit. There is nothing worse than trying hard to do follow the rules, and the rules changing with no notice and no pattern.
Frankly, I'd be happy to respond to Barry's point about quality going up or down through time, but I don't dare for fear that it will be seen as more of the "negative rant" (apparent new rule???).
Folks, there is such a thing as moderating a board in the interest of community discussion, and there is such a thing as the chilling of participation due to overly restrictive moderating. By far the worst is wildly arbitrary moderating where one honestly- HONESTLY - and sincerely never knows what will set off a moderator.
This "negative rants" thing really was a totally unforeseen reaction. Nothing whatever in the guidelines, or even common sense told me this was a danger. It feels more like a personal reaction and a cranky "because I feel like it". There is no way to anticipate stuff like this, and this has a truly chilling effect.
Anyhow, moderators can make up any rules they please - that's how it should be. But the rules should then be spelled out.
I honestly don't get it. Posting guidelines say "no politics, no religion, no personal attacks, no spamming, no off topic posting". This is all very sensible, and commendable.
The Cafe says "yap whatever you want about" - which, apart from the things excluded above, means we can talk about whatever else.
Yet recently there's been a trend to lock up threads for no clear reason. I know I'm not the only one who is puzzled by it. Charli started a thread about hospital bills, and it was going fine, without going against any of the posting guidelines and yet, it was locked - she too was puzzled by this.
Now this: "I agree with Barry; I think the spate of rant threads in the Cafe is getting to be a bit much. Let's lighten the tone." Say what??? Now somehow it is against the rules of the cafe to have "negative rants" (whatever those are)? Huh? Where did this come from? Not from posting guidelines, that's for sure! Certainly nobody can say there was even any issue of "in bad taste", let alone breaking any rules.
If there is to be no more "negative rants" (which will hopefully be defined as to what constitutes "negative" and "rants"), then let those be put into the posting guidelines. And while we are at it, any other "rules" so that they don't take us by surprise. If from now on, only "happy smiling pink bon-bon" posts are allowed - fine, but let's make it explicit. There is nothing worse than trying hard to do follow the rules, and the rules changing with no notice and no pattern.
Frankly, I'd be happy to respond to Barry's point about quality going up or down through time, but I don't dare for fear that it will be seen as more of the "negative rant" (apparent new rule???).
Folks, there is such a thing as moderating a board in the interest of community discussion, and there is such a thing as the chilling of participation due to overly restrictive moderating. By far the worst is wildly arbitrary moderating where one honestly- HONESTLY - and sincerely never knows what will set off a moderator.
This "negative rants" thing really was a totally unforeseen reaction. Nothing whatever in the guidelines, or even common sense told me this was a danger. It feels more like a personal reaction and a cranky "because I feel like it". There is no way to anticipate stuff like this, and this has a truly chilling effect.
Anyhow, moderators can make up any rules they please - that's how it should be. But the rules should then be spelled out.
Charli's thread was locked because it became political. When comments about freeloading illegal immigrants and bloodthirsty CEOs get into the mix, it's going down a bad road.
We don't always state a specific reason, because we give the membership the benefit of the doubt for being able to figure some things out on their own. There was some talk about posting an explanation in that thread, but by the time we talked about it, the thread was already on the second or third page. It's a fine line.
As is most of moderating a message board with 30K + members. There's always going to be someone who doesn't like what we do, no matter what it is. And there's always someone who's going to be vocal about it.
In this instance, we're not banning anything. We're OBSERVING that the Cafe has become a hotbed of negative threads lately, and that as moderators, we feel that people should self-moderate and think twice about posting more rants.
Our guidelines do spell out numerous things that are exceptions to "yap about whatever you want" (which is a legacy tag from Day 1 of this board, and one that we've been talking about changing for a while), and the "Six P's" have a SPIRIT as well as letter. Numerous negative threads contribute to "pi$$ing in the pool," especially when those threads have nothing whatsoever to do with what this board is about.
All we're saying is, let's swing the pendulum the other way. We're a group of friends; let's keep it light and the pile-ons to a minimum. We're not making a hard and fast rule, and you'll notice we didn't close this thread; we merely offered guidance as to the way it (and other threads) should go. Sorry that it happened in your thread, but it's in general reference to many, not just this one. As moderators, we saw a tone change that wasn't benefiting the board, and it's one we're trying to nudge the other way.
We don't always state a specific reason, because we give the membership the benefit of the doubt for being able to figure some things out on their own. There was some talk about posting an explanation in that thread, but by the time we talked about it, the thread was already on the second or third page. It's a fine line.
As is most of moderating a message board with 30K + members. There's always going to be someone who doesn't like what we do, no matter what it is. And there's always someone who's going to be vocal about it.
In this instance, we're not banning anything. We're OBSERVING that the Cafe has become a hotbed of negative threads lately, and that as moderators, we feel that people should self-moderate and think twice about posting more rants.
Our guidelines do spell out numerous things that are exceptions to "yap about whatever you want" (which is a legacy tag from Day 1 of this board, and one that we've been talking about changing for a while), and the "Six P's" have a SPIRIT as well as letter. Numerous negative threads contribute to "pi$$ing in the pool," especially when those threads have nothing whatsoever to do with what this board is about.
All we're saying is, let's swing the pendulum the other way. We're a group of friends; let's keep it light and the pile-ons to a minimum. We're not making a hard and fast rule, and you'll notice we didn't close this thread; we merely offered guidance as to the way it (and other threads) should go. Sorry that it happened in your thread, but it's in general reference to many, not just this one. As moderators, we saw a tone change that wasn't benefiting the board, and it's one we're trying to nudge the other way.
I'd say something here but last time I did my post got deleted.....
rogar-Angry(DBG):
Honestly I can see where some things get overboard and we're all suppose to be civilized but quickly pulling the trigger , IMO, can really stifle honest dialog. And when you hate to speak up for fear of locking a thread or getting you opinion deleted, well that's a huge political subject isn't it.....
Then again it's their board and they can do as they see fit with it.
rogar-Angry(DBG):Honestly I can see where some things get overboard and we're all suppose to be civilized but quickly pulling the trigger , IMO, can really stifle honest dialog. And when you hate to speak up for fear of locking a thread or getting you opinion deleted, well that's a huge political subject isn't it.....
Then again it's their board and they can do as they see fit with it.
cinematical
Well-known member
Have you seen the Honda Fit? That little popcorn-car is HUGE inside - I've considered it specifically because it seems like it would be good for hauling gear around. Not like a pickup, of course.
Wild Imagination Films
Well-known member
I was on a board the other day where the rules of religion, politics, etc weren't in place. While I may disagree with the closing of Charli's threads, I can completely understand the thoughts of the mods here. I think there needs to be a little more self policing and not have everyone jump on the band wagons. Things have been a little more negative around here lately, but I think this is a reflection of how we feel like this is our home and we are free to "yap about whatever you want."
There is a lot of unhappiness in the world, lots of frustration and tension and weariness brought on by the daily exposure to what's going on around us. the mods are right, we don't have to bring it in here. The members are right, this is a great place to air it out with others who think as we do. (not always)
I think name calling and just plain ugly stuff is obvious and should be quelled. But let's not ruin the Cafe by "pissing in the pool" or restricting it with tonnes of rules.
Thanks JM2CW
BTW- best car I ever owned for every aspect of vehicular happiness, '95 MR2 na fully loaded. Currently '03 Subaru Baja. (in the shop
)
There is a lot of unhappiness in the world, lots of frustration and tension and weariness brought on by the daily exposure to what's going on around us. the mods are right, we don't have to bring it in here. The members are right, this is a great place to air it out with others who think as we do. (not always)
I think name calling and just plain ugly stuff is obvious and should be quelled. But let's not ruin the Cafe by "pissing in the pool" or restricting it with tonnes of rules.
Thanks JM2CW
BTW- best car I ever owned for every aspect of vehicular happiness, '95 MR2 na fully loaded. Currently '03 Subaru Baja. (in the shop
)
Off-topic:
It might seem, at first glance, that the board is wound a little on the tight side. The readily available other option is for people to go try other boards that don't have or enforce rules like DVXUser's Six Ps guidelines.
In these places, where seemingly little thought is given over to manners or civility, virtual fist-fights break out on a daily basis. The message board is a great communication tool, but an ill side-effect seems to be the instant tearing down of the thin veneer of civility we practice when we're face-to-face.
I have, on several occassions, posted suggestions that posters relax their tone or at least consider that they're violating the guidelines. In more than one of these instances, I've received rude replies by PM that the poster wouldn't dare submit in the public forum.
DVXUser is one of the few boards I've seen on the web, and certainly for filmmaking, where friendly collaboration is more the rule than the exception. Look around, and you will likely agree that the guidelines - and their strict enforcement - begin to make plenty of sense.
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It might seem, at first glance, that the board is wound a little on the tight side. The readily available other option is for people to go try other boards that don't have or enforce rules like DVXUser's Six Ps guidelines.
In these places, where seemingly little thought is given over to manners or civility, virtual fist-fights break out on a daily basis. The message board is a great communication tool, but an ill side-effect seems to be the instant tearing down of the thin veneer of civility we practice when we're face-to-face.
I have, on several occassions, posted suggestions that posters relax their tone or at least consider that they're violating the guidelines. In more than one of these instances, I've received rude replies by PM that the poster wouldn't dare submit in the public forum.
DVXUser is one of the few boards I've seen on the web, and certainly for filmmaking, where friendly collaboration is more the rule than the exception. Look around, and you will likely agree that the guidelines - and their strict enforcement - begin to make plenty of sense.
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Well, I had no idea Charli's thread got political - apparently the "political" posts were removed... as they should've been since they were against the rules. Totally understandable - remove the offending posts, and remind the posters responsible of the six P etc. On the other hand, locking the thread seems to me going a bit overboard, but what do I know. It just seems to me, that we can't hold every thread hostage to the danger that some inappropriate posts will lock it - the thread may have merit, so why shut down a good thread, instead of just punishing the offenders and removing the bad posts?
Yes, there is the law and the spirit. And I totally agree with it - after all, we don't want to have to battle those who find creative ways to subvert the rules. Again, agree 100%. Or as a famous judge said it "I know it when I see it".
What's at issue is when you honestly, sincerely, don't see it. I confess - I was totally shocked by Barry's reaction. Not for a second did it occur to me that I was breaking any rules, whether in letter or in spirit. And when he made that remark, I felt sucker-punched. I still can't see what that was about. I mean, let's sit down here for a moment and in total candor ask: how was this post "pissing in the pool". Whom is it offending? Honestly? The abstract concept of the "American car industry"? American car workers? No, I held them in high regard, and absolved them of any blame. Engineers? Ditto. I bagged on some "overpaid incompetent execs" - and THIS is "pissing in the pool of DVX users"??? Holy moly. Something ain't right.
I don't have problems obeying rules, explicit or implicit, letter or spirit. If rules get too absurd, I leave without complaining - I never complain about rules... you own the place, you have the sacred right to make any and all rules. However, it's when despite being super careful I can't actually figure out the rules that I find reason to ask for clarification. As is now, the best I can figure out, is that there's a new category out there, "negative rants", and you're supposed to first check how many there were recently, and if not many, you're allowed to timidly mention something that might be interpreted by someone as "negative". Fine. I admit, it is not easy to figure out how many are "too many" rants, and it makes things complicated. But cutting out all BS, I suspect it's simply that some mods have their private sensitivities and it's your bad luck if inadvertently you touch upon one. In this case perhaps Barry dislikes any post that can be construed as critical of anything "American" and I wss unlucky to brush against that sensitivity, but I don't really know and I'd rather not guess, but have some clear rules. Anyhow, this is a no-win situation, so I'll shut up now, and this is my last post in this thread, so let's end it here (at least I will end it).
Yes, there is the law and the spirit. And I totally agree with it - after all, we don't want to have to battle those who find creative ways to subvert the rules. Again, agree 100%. Or as a famous judge said it "I know it when I see it".
What's at issue is when you honestly, sincerely, don't see it. I confess - I was totally shocked by Barry's reaction. Not for a second did it occur to me that I was breaking any rules, whether in letter or in spirit. And when he made that remark, I felt sucker-punched. I still can't see what that was about. I mean, let's sit down here for a moment and in total candor ask: how was this post "pissing in the pool". Whom is it offending? Honestly? The abstract concept of the "American car industry"? American car workers? No, I held them in high regard, and absolved them of any blame. Engineers? Ditto. I bagged on some "overpaid incompetent execs" - and THIS is "pissing in the pool of DVX users"??? Holy moly. Something ain't right.
I don't have problems obeying rules, explicit or implicit, letter or spirit. If rules get too absurd, I leave without complaining - I never complain about rules... you own the place, you have the sacred right to make any and all rules. However, it's when despite being super careful I can't actually figure out the rules that I find reason to ask for clarification. As is now, the best I can figure out, is that there's a new category out there, "negative rants", and you're supposed to first check how many there were recently, and if not many, you're allowed to timidly mention something that might be interpreted by someone as "negative". Fine. I admit, it is not easy to figure out how many are "too many" rants, and it makes things complicated. But cutting out all BS, I suspect it's simply that some mods have their private sensitivities and it's your bad luck if inadvertently you touch upon one. In this case perhaps Barry dislikes any post that can be construed as critical of anything "American" and I wss unlucky to brush against that sensitivity, but I don't really know and I'd rather not guess, but have some clear rules. Anyhow, this is a no-win situation, so I'll shut up now, and this is my last post in this thread, so let's end it here (at least I will end it).
DivotDan
Veteran
I'm with Erik. I know that I for one can be too forward with my comments sometimes (just read back through this thread). It's kinda the nature of message boards. People usually type in a stream of consciousness. I know I've gone back and re-read what I've typed before and thought I came off like a jerk or whatever.
And as a side note, I don't think you could ask for better MODs than what we have here. They do an awesome job of reeling people back in and helping to keep the peace. :thumbsup: Thanks for that!
Back on topic, the most fun car I have owned to date was an '03 350z. I had to sell if for fear I would kill myself. It had hardly any room for anything. Nothing fancy on the inside. The factory stereo was ok at best (non-Bose version), but no one cared. That thing would haul and rode like it was on rails. Now I miss it. :violin:
And as a side note, I don't think you could ask for better MODs than what we have here. They do an awesome job of reeling people back in and helping to keep the peace. :thumbsup: Thanks for that!
Back on topic, the most fun car I have owned to date was an '03 350z. I had to sell if for fear I would kill myself. It had hardly any room for anything. Nothing fancy on the inside. The factory stereo was ok at best (non-Bose version), but no one cared. That thing would haul and rode like it was on rails. Now I miss it. :violin:
We're done talking about cars. Now we're talking about other things. Stay with it man!
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