XDCam HD vs. DVCPro HD in Final Cut Pro, help...

[trueblue]

Hello,

Can someone speak specifically to the issue of how much more processor intensive a long GOP format like the EX1s than the HVX200's DVCPro HD during the editing process?

I find myself vacillating between the EX1 and the HVX200 and so far as I can see the primary advantage the HVX200 has is that DVCPro HD is less processor intensive to edit in FCP2 than XDCam HD (and perhaps cleaner because it uses a much larger bit rate, but leaving that aside for the moment...)


I know this is because the EX1 uses XD Cam HD, a long GOP codec akin to what HDV uses and for this reason it can't be edited directly but instead must be transcoded to something like Pro Res.

Otherwise, I'm told that long GOP codecs must re-render after any edits (dissolves, titles, color correction, etc) and that this takes a great deal more time than on SD or DVCPro HD.

I'm wondering how much time this takes (say on a MacBook Pro or an Intel Imac with a 2.4 mhz C2D) and whether this creates a substantial real world difference in workflow.

Any specific examples of the difference in editing these two formats would be greatly appreciated. I'm primarily interested in using the cameras for in-studio interviews (with studio lighting) with simple dissolve transitions and some titles, but not much else.

 

[matthew77]

...whether this creates a substantial real world difference in workflow.

No extra time at all - perhaps in final render yes, but on the timeline work is as seamless as DV (not HDV, but DV).

You don't need to render anything when cutting or dissolving. All of the long GOP housekeeping is handled in the background and invisibly to the user.

And no transcoding is required. You edit directly in XDCAM.

 

[Kholi]

Was gonna post this same question here soon, so thanks for answerin' Matthew. Going to finally get my hands on an EX-1 to do some testin'.

 

[trueblue]

No extra time at all - perhaps in final render yes, but on the timeline work is as seamless as DV (not HDV, but DV).

You don't need to render anything when cutting or dissolving. All of the long GOP housekeeping is handled in the background and invisibly to the user.

And no transcoding is required. You edit directly in XDCAM.

Thanks for the reply. But if that's true, why do some people say DVCPro HD is so much easier to edit in?

Is there any disadvantage to XDCam except for the smaller bitrate?

(And this might not even be disadvantage- given the clarity of the EX1 footage I've seen online (and the color and low light performance), one might even think that at 25/35 mbps the EX1 provides an overall better image than the HVX-200 does at 100 mbps.)

Is there anything to fear or dislike about the XDcam format (or long GOP codecs in general)?

 

[matthew77]

But if that's true, why do some people say DVCPro HD is so much easier to edit in?

Have you noticed that a lot of people (on this forum especially) say weird, sensationalistic and sometimes patently false things when you start comparing the EX1 to the HVX?

Is there any disadvantage to XDCam except for the smaller bitrate?

The differences have been gone over numerous times here. In practical terms, when using FCP, there is no difference. DVCPROHD is a better looking format than XDCAM, but when you compare HVX200 DVCPROHD with PMW-EX1 XDCAM, I would take the latter in a heartbeat.

(And this might not even be disadvantage- given the clarity of the EX1 footage I've seen online (and the color and low light performance), one might even think that at 25/35 mbps the EX1 provides an overall better image than the HVX-200 does at 100 mbps.)

Agreed. At 35Mbps, anyway.

Is there anything to fear or dislike about the XDcam format (or long GOP codecs in general)?

Some long GOP codecs have big disadvantages - HDV with its macroblocking, transcoding, bad sound etc. XDCAM-EX edited in FCP is pretty seamless and very good looking (and sounding). There are no disadvantages for me. But let others chime in here, and ultimately you should decide for yourself.

 

[harddrive]

Thanks for the reply. But if that's true, why do some people say DVCPro HD is so much easier to edit in?

The answer may be as simple as technology has moved on - DVCPro HD is still much easier to edit if your system is a year or two old, but a new and more powerful system does the work without you noticing. I've always understood the editing drawbacks to be a far greater drawback to long-GOP than quality issues.

The other approach is to transcode before editing, and ProRes and FCP is an option I'm hearing good things about, especially if there's a lot of post to be done.

 

[Alex.Mitchell]

To be fair, DVCProHD @ 720 24pn is only 40 mbps and 1080 24p really only uses 80mbps. In the absence of lots and lots of motion, a 35mbps, VBR, long-GOP codec will look better than a 40mbps, SBR, intra-frame codec.

 

[kakfilm]

Thanks for the reply. But if that's true, why do some people say DVCPro HD is so much easier to edit in?

Is there any disadvantage to XDCam except for the smaller bitrate?


Is there anything to fear or dislike about the XDcam format (or long GOP codecs in general)?

Have you noticed that those people that complain about the Long GOP editing are all Panasonic users? I'm sure you'll hear of Sony users complaining about Panasonic cameras.

I've edited on XDCAM for over a year and never have problems editing XDCAM footage. I've even mixed it with HDV footage. Your final render will take a little longer, but that just depends on how much effects and graphics you have on your timeline.

 

[Elton]

The other approach is to transcode before editing, and ProRes and FCP is an option I'm hearing good things about, especially if there's a lot of post to be done.

It's an excellent option, and when compared to the quicktime "wrapping" process of converting HVX MXF files to QT DVCPRO HD...it really isn't much more time consuming to convert XDCAM EX HQ files to ProRes and enjoy the benefits of intra-frame editing...particularly if the edit would be fx-intensive. It's especially good to convert to ProRes if you plan on "round tripping" from a FCP timeline to Motion, Color, etc.

So, the option of editing XDCAM native (if you only need simple transitions, CC, titling etc) or converting to ProRes makes the FCP XDCAM workflow actually very flexible.

 

[basilisk]

FCP seems perfectly happy with long GOP. It is more processor intensive, but less disc intensive. Have edited fine on a MacBook Pro - I guess older G5 macs may have a problem. Credit to Apple for getting the EX1 compatiblity sorted out fairly quickly (almost makes up for some of the Quicktime screw-ups they have had recently...)

From a disc usage point of view, it is nice to be using files only 40% bigger than DV, but about 4000% better looking. You loose some of this benefit by transcoding (plus do you keep the original files as a backup, using more disc space?)

I may end up transcoding to ProRes for use with After Effects - which is not really happy with interframe formats in general.

 

[puredrifting]

FCP seems perfectly happy with long GOP. It is more processor intensive, but less disc intensive. Have edited fine on a MacBook Pro - I guess older G5 macs may have a problem.

I do have an older G5, its a dual 2.3gGhz PCI-e with 4MB RAM. Do you think that XDCAM EX footage might drag it down too much in comparison to my HVX-200 footage? I do use Magic Bullet and Motion quite a bit. I am contemplating switching too. I love my HVX but my clients would be happier with cleaner, less noisy and sharper footage, there is no denying it. I did a shoot with the EX-1 the other day and while the image definitely strikes me as much more video-like than the HVX-200, it is also much cleaner and sharper. I mostly shoot interiews, tabletop and an occasional action sequence so I don't think the rolling shutter issues would be much of a factor for me.

Ughh, I really don't want to get a new camera but I can also save close to $2,000.00 by not having to buy an external monitor when using my Letus. That in itself is compelling.

Thanks for any first hand feedback about editing the XDCAM EX format. I know that my G5 and RAID are not fast enough to capture Pro Res 422 but I think they can edit it okay, I think?

Dan

 

[BrenMyster]

So are people pretty happy converting to pro res? i have never used the codec but intend to when I get my new mac though in a matter of days.

I'm waiting for the iMac update which should see me getting a 2.4-5ghz intel with 3 gb RAM. People think this will edit Ex footage fine?

I'm always a little wary of converting before an edit but if pro res is as good as people say then it might easy my mind.

What about the pro res file size?

 

[David Jimerson]

Have you noticed that a lot of people (on this forum especially) say weird, sensationalistic and sometimes patently false things when you start comparing the EX1 to the HVX?

In the absence of lots and lots of motion, a 35mbps, VBR, long-GOP codec will look better than a 40mbps, SBR, intra-frame codec.

Let's just accept that people say interesting things sometimes. :happy:

 

[doondoon]

I think another important point to consider is that DVCPRO-HD isn't the most efficient codec... it is showing it's age now, which is made clear with the introduction of the new AVC-Intra codec which uses about HALF the space and is much higher quality.

Think about this in rough respect to this thread.

 

[doondoon]

So are people pretty happy converting to pro res? i have never used the codec but intend to when I get my new mac though in a matter of days.

I'm waiting for the iMac update which should see me getting a 2.4-5ghz intel with 3 gb RAM. People think this will edit Ex footage fine?

I'm always a little wary of converting before an edit but if pro res is as good as people say then it might easy my mind.

What about the pro res file size?

I convert to ProRes HQ most of the time. It's 10-bit and in my experience does three things.

1. Makes it very easy to edit most anything in FCP
2. Provides the ability to push and pull colors around with less image degradation
3. Does both of these things without compromising image quality.

To be overly clear, my choice to cut in a ProRes timeline has nothing to do with my computer or FCP not being able to handle XDCAM or DVCPRO natively (it handles both codecs perfectly)... I just think the Apple ProRes HQ codec handles grading and effects better.

 

[Elton]

I just think the Apple ProRes HQ codec handles grading and effects better.

Without a doubt. I was shocked to see how much of a difference it made when working in Color. ProRes is one of the best things to happen to QT and Final Cut in recent memory. It solves all kinds of problems with the babel of HD formats and is really the way anyone should go if they don't want to deal with long GOP in a FCP-based workflow.

My only complaint is that it's not cross-platform.

 

[Kholi]

I do have an older G5, its a dual 2.3gGhz PCI-e with 4MB RAM. Do you think that XDCAM EX footage might drag it down too much in comparison to my HVX-200 footage? I do use Magic Bullet and Motion quite a bit. I am contemplating switching too. I love my HVX but my clients would be happier with cleaner, less noisy and sharper footage, there is no denying it. I did a shoot with the EX-1 the other day and while the image definitely strikes me as much more video-like than the HVX-200, it is also much cleaner and sharper. I mostly shoot interiews, tabletop and an occasional action sequence so I don't think the rolling shutter issues would be much of a factor for me.

Ughh, I really don't want to get a new camera but I can also save close to $2,000.00 by not having to buy an external monitor when using my Letus. That in itself is compelling.

Thanks for any first hand feedback about editing the XDCAM EX format. I know that my G5 and RAID are not fast enough to capture Pro Res 422 but I think they can edit it okay, I think?

Dan

Now you know what I was going through. Only reason I didn't bite the bullet was because of the mechanical issues. NAB is about a month away.

Stay strong!

 

[Stevet]

Now you know what I was going through. Only reason I didn't bite the bullet was because of the mechanical issues. NAB is about a month away.

Stay strong!

Good reasoning. I really interested in upcoming cameras. You can't help wonder what panasonic has up their sleeves..

 

[puredrifting]

Good reasoning. I really interested in upcoming cameras. You can't help wonder what panasonic has up their sleeves..

Well, we all know one of three things will happen. IMHO, these are the most likely scenarios in order of probability...

1. Panasonic shows working versions of new HMC-150 camera. No other announcements.

2. Panasonic surprise announces and shows HVX-200A. Same camera that we have now with some incremental improvements.

3. Panasonic blows everyone out of the water by announcing new sub $10,000.00 HVX-300 or something like it with all of the features of the EX-1 or better like including all of the same plus making it a 3 CCD instead of 3 CMOS, adds AVC-Intra capability with VFR, etc. I don't think this will happen at all but I guess there is always a remote chance. Based upon the past though, Jan and Co. probably would have a teaser campaign going on like we had for the HVX, etc. and as well all know, Panasonic has been mum about anything new other than the HMC-150.

My prognostications, let's keep this thread alive until NAB and see what happens.

Dan

 

[Gogu]

i'm sorry but this whole discution about formats is in unknown space for me. I looked up wikipedia and it says there that DV and XDCAM EX have the same bitrate , that is 35mbit/s. Is this true ? Then why is there such a huge differnce in quality but more importantly i cannot understand how can you squeeze all that data in the same space.
I understand what GOP is but what does long GOP mean ? Sorry if i ask things that have already been discussed but i have been reading this post so far and i'm not getting it.

What proccesing power do you need to edit XDCAM on a PC. A friend of mine said the likes of a 10k graphic station but i don't know if i should believe him. Still the Avid Pro HD system specs talk about Xeon processors and Nvidia professional graphic cards...

I'm in the tree here, help aprecciated! :dankk2: