Integrating Canon A1 and HV20 + Workflow?

[borax]

Hi,

I am about to shoot a documentary using the Canon XH A1 as the A camera and the Canon HV20 as the B camera.

From what I have read the look of both these cameras matches up very well, so I am not worried about the look of the video. My concern is dealing with the variations in the codec which might have an effect on working in 24p.

My tentative workflow would be to shoot both cameras in 24p mode, but since the HV20 has to be trans-coded to true 24p editable material (which means lots of wasted hours in post) I would import and edit the material as 29.97 and not remove the flags from the Canon A1 footage.

This should keep the look of 24p but in a 29.97 timeline, thereby creating a simpler post process, and ending up with a 1080i HD master for Blu-Ray with the look of 24p.. How does this sound so far??

Now my question is if I go with this workflow, if we are lucky enough to get theatrical distribution, is it possible to remove the interlace and end up with a 24p version to print to film?

Thanks for your help.

 

[Nektonic]

My tentative workflow would be to shoot both cameras in 24p mode, but since the HV20 has to be trans-coded to true 24p editable material (which means lots of wasted hours in post) I would import and edit the material as 29.97 and not remove the flags from the Canon A1 footage.

This should keep the look of 24p but in a 29.97 timeline, thereby creating a simpler post process, and ending up with a 1080i HD master for Blu-Ray with the look of 24p.. How does this sound so far??

Now my question is if I go with this workflow, if we are lucky enough to get theatrical distribution, is it possible to remove the interlace and end up with a 24p version to print to film?

Thanks for your help.

I hate to rain on your parade, but the major problem with this method is that the A1 doesn't add 2-3 pulldown to its 24p. The A1's 24p mode is actually a true 24p. It goes to tape as 24p, and should be captured in 24p into your editing software. FCP 6.0 can convert the 24p into 60i automatically if you drop it onto a 60i timeline, but then that may also degrade the quality somewhat.

If you want to have a true 24p master at the end of editing, then I think you will have to bite the bullet and transcode the HV20 footage to 24p. Unless you are only going to use the occasional shot here or there and if only for a quick insert, you should be able to get away with not transcoding to true 24p for the HV20. I would test this with your editing software before deciding though.

If you can get a hold of Elton, he could probably give some good advice. He seems to be one the the top tech experts when it comes to the Canon HDV lineup.

Also, the Cineform products, which are plug-ins for Premiere Pro and Vegas users, allows you to remove the HV20's pulldown. I think it does this during video capture, but check with Cineform to be sure.

 

[borax]

I hate to rain on your parade, but the major problem with this method is that the A1 doesn't add 2-3 pulldown to its 24p. The A1's 24p mode is actually a true 24p. It goes to tape as 24p, and should be captured in 24p into your editing software.

Is that really true?

I thought that the HVX could do that because it had a 24pn mode that could capture full frames to a digital file but since HDV goes to tape even 24p material contains flags that have to be removed upon import?

What I thought the Canon A1 did was use a alternate codec that flagged the interlaced frames in a way that when captured would be pulled out resulting in a true 24p frame rate.

Can anyone else clear this up?

If you are right I guess I would have to spend the time and transcode the material.

The problem is I am going to have 3 HV20's and only 1 A1 so the amount of footage is going to be staggering. Hopefully I am right and can just capture the A1 without dropping the flagged frames.

Anyone?

 

[Barry_Green]

but since HDV goes to tape even 24p material contains flags that have to be removed upon import?

Canon invented their own format for this. They do indeed record just 24 frames, no pulldown, not embedded in 60i, but only in "24F" mode (available on the XHA1, XHG1, and XLH1). On the HV20 and other consumer-level cameras, it's always embedded within 60i using 2:3 pulldown.

The problem is I am going to have 3 HV20's and only 1 A1 so the amount of footage is going to be staggering. Hopefully I am right and can just capture the A1 without dropping the flagged frames.

Anyone?

The A1 doesn't have flagged frames. Well, for that matter, neither does the HV20 -- that's been the big issue with working with HV20 24p footage, is that Canon didn't put in frame flags so that NLE's could automatically strip out the pulldown.

Cineform does have a tool that's supposed to pull out the 24P, so you might want to download their software and give it a go.

 

[borax]

Ok, gottcha.

Well in that case does it make sense just to add the extra frames to the A1 footage and edit in a 29.97 timeline. Will doing that actually "degrade" the A1 image quality?

I assume that it will retain its 24p look when converted.

 

[Barry_Green]

If you've ever watched a movie on broadcast television, you've seen 24p footage that's had 2:3 pulldown added to it. So yes, it'll retain its 24p look.

If possible, I'd still explore the idea of stripping out the pulldown from the HV20 footage. Editing in straight 24p is just so much nicer...

 

[Nektonic]

I feel your pain. I don't why Canon didn't include two 24p modes on the HV20. One with 2-3 pulldown, and one that goes straight to tape as 24p, like the XL-1H and XH-A1/G1 cameras do.

The reason that editing your project in true 24p is that if you do get theatrical distribution, or even if you want to just distribute on DVD or Blu-ray, then you've got true 24p. You can always add the 2-3 pulldown if needed, but it will most likely be more difficult to retain a 24p master from a 60i master.

Also, another good reason for the Cineform software, especially if you're on a PC is that it will give you the option to work in a better codec than standard HDV. It will also allow your NLE software to use your processor and RAM more efficiently. I believe render times will improve as well. Another consideration beyond theatrical is that if you want to offer your film as an HD download online, then 24p will look nice on a computer monitor. Also, the Blu-ray format supports true 24p video.

I was originally on Premiere Pro for a long time before switching to FCP this last October. If I had decided to stay on a PC, then without question I would have bought a Cineform plug-in for Premiere.

 

[borax]

I don't why Canon didn't include two 24p modes on the HV20. One with 2-3 pulldown, and one that goes straight to tape as 24p, like the XL-1H and XH-A1/G1 cameras do.

Does the Canon XH-A1 really have a setting for capturing 24p with 2-3 pulldown? I think that means inside 29.97.

Sorry if I read that wrong. But thats what I was hoping the XH-A1 could do to match the HV20.

 

[Ian-T]

Hey borax, I know you are getting a lot of technical answers to a simple question. But the fact is, as mentioned above, the A1 records 24F and in order to match both the HV20 and A1 footage you have to remove pulldown from the HV20's footage. You can do that with third party software utilities like Cineform (around $300.00) or even using TMPGEnc 4.0 XPress ($99.95).

Also...if you choose Cineform.....you don't have to have any wasted hours in post.... I mean you have to capture the footage from tape correct? Well Cineform removes the pulldown while capturing from tape and it gives you a much better medium (other than MPEG-2) to work with.

There are other ways of removing the pulldown but they all add that extra step that you are not wanting.....tnough you can batch process all of your footage.

I don't know if you can capture your footage on the A1 with pulldown...but you would want to avoid that even if it does allow this.