Last Minute 2nd thought Red or EX1

I think a lot of people are actually weighing the EX1 against the Red. Because while they might be seen as very different cameras, they BOTH make sense for low-budget, indie filmmakers...but for different reasons.

If you are really planning to continue as a one-man band, go with the EX1. The Red is unwieldy and heavy and, practically speaking, requires two people to go out shooting. There are ways to work around this, I'm sure, like special carts and packs for taking everything with you. But having used the Red for a week, I can honestly see why a guy who wants to stay mobile and independent will go with the EX1. Given the amazing picture quality of the EX1 and the tiny (in comparison) form factor, it has an awful lot going for it. The Red, with all the batteries and rails and plates and so on, is really really heavy.

There are also so many extra costs that surprise you after a camera purchase. And the EX1's price will give you that extra room to afford these costs.

I like the Red over the EX1 because I'm interested in drama above all else, and I want that cinematic depth of field, and the whole 35mm adapter thing has really worn thin for me.
 
sean90291 said:
I like the Red over the EX1 because I'm interested in drama above all else, and I want that cinematic depth of field, and the whole 35mm adapter thing has really worn thin for me.
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I hear you there. Well put.

The RED is amazing, but if you're not ready for the additional costs and work involved working with the footage, be prepared.

If you want a simple solution, the EX1 with the Letus Extreme and the new correct EX1 Letus acromat is a great way to go.
 
Given that DOF is determined in large part by the sensor size, I can't wait for the day that 35mm sensors are housed in smaller cameras. Within the next few years? That will be awesome: an HV20 sized camera with a 35mm sensor and Nikon mount.

In the meantime, at least the EX1 has 1/2" sensor instead of the standard 1/3".
 
Kenn Christenson said:
I've already done some miniature and green screen tests with the HVX and can attest to the difficulty of getting a super clean composite.
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Kenn...

The software used to pull the key can also have a dramatic effect on the quality of the greenscreen FX.

I'm using After Effects and compared Keylight to Primatte. Generally Primatte is a lot more flexible of the two. The user can define what is green and what isn't. I recently shot a bunch of interviews against green screen and forgot to pass the word about what colors not to wear.

Of course one of the interviews wore a green shirt. Fortunately the green was different from the green of the background and I decided to take a chance and go ahead.

I managed to pull a pretty good key, even with the green shirt. Primatte distinguishes what's "in" and what's "out" based on a 3D color space, and is capable of separating colors that seem impossibly close.

That said, what helps is having clean edges. Fringing, ringing and unsharp-mask halos are all troublesome. While I haven't used the EX1 for green screen work yet, the higher detail of the EX1's footage looks like it would have smaller artifacts, if any, and would provide a cleaner and more detailed key.
 
DCSensui said:
Kenn...

The software used to pull the key can also have a dramatic effect on the quality of the greenscreen FX.

I'm using After Effects and compared Keylight to Primatte. Generally Primatte is a lot more flexible of the two. The user can define what is green and what isn't. I recently shot a bunch of interviews against green screen and forgot to pass the word about what colors not to wear.

Of course one of the interviews wore a green shirt. Fortunately the green was different from the green of the background and I decided to take a chance and go ahead.

I managed to pull a pretty good key, even with the green shirt. Primatte distinguishes what's "in" and what's "out" based on a 3D color space, and is capable of separating colors that seem impossibly close.

That said, what helps is having clean edges. Fringing, ringing and unsharp-mask halos are all troublesome. While I haven't used the EX1 for green screen work yet, the higher detail of the EX1's footage looks like it would have smaller artifacts, if any, and would provide a cleaner and more detailed key.
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Hi Dean:

When you get a chance, I would love to see some EX-1 greenscreen footage. That is the one thing I have not seen from anyone yet. Yes, it has great resolution and low noise but it is a 4:2:0 camera. Should be interesting to see. Use a blond model smoking a cigarette, if possible ;-)

Dan
 
"Downside the the HPX 500 is the quality of the chip is not at good as the EX1 and certainly miles away from the Red. It's not a true HD chip."

Hey Mister - thats subjective, and is a point of discussion that has been answered and clarified by Barry Green numerous times.

I find this bizarre discussion somewhat amusing, how one can honestly compare these cams is totally bizarre. Most folk see advantages and disadvantages to the EX with other hdv cams, or hvx etc etc.

Comparing the EX to the Red for feature films (if both can be comfortably afforded) is as sensical as comparing the hvx, or canon a1 to the Red...

Given the obvious naivity of the poster (in even thinking of spending such an amount on a red for a one man band to make primarily corporates) is reason enough to shake your head at this silly thread. In anycase, its obvious that if your primarily doing corporates and normal business, that the EX, or any of the other hdv cams would be fine - personally id go for the hvx for its filmlook preferences but that is subjective too naturally. As is also the reason im getting the HPX also, as its to me an ideal cross over from corporate to film projects. The EX will grab a sharp picture - no doubt there, but if your wanting to cross over to film and can afford a red - id be looking at 2/3 options such as the hpx, not the prosumer range...

That said and i mean no offence, given the impression of your first post, it may be a prosumer cam (that you can work and learn with) that would be your best start!
 
We have access to both the RED and EX-1(with the letus extreme) and i have to say that for the majority of work so far, we havent needed to use the RED...its just overkill for the work we have been doing...this is perhaps a testament to the fact that our budgets are not HUGE, but the EX-1 really is a great camera for the price.
 
puredrifting said:
Hi Dean:

When you get a chance, I would love to see some EX-1 greenscreen footage. That is the one thing I have not seen from anyone yet. Yes, it has great resolution and low noise but it is a 4:2:0 camera. Should be interesting to see. Use a blond model smoking a cigarette, if possible ;-)

Dan
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Dan,

Here's a blue (!) screen test that Jim Arthurs did (go to post #8 and follow the link). Pretty impressive results. Green screen and good lighting should be even better. I think his conclusion is that the full 1920x1080 resolution more than makes up for the 4:2:0 color.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=123990
 
One factor I just thought of, which distinguishes Red from EX1 as far as a "one-man-crew" goes...and that is you can't really run around with an onboard mic with the Red. The camera is a bit noisier than most video cameras. Certainly noisier than an EX1. I just think you gotta get the mic up and away from the Red on a boom...and that means a second person to cover your sound for you.
 
This might be a bit out of topic but maybe on this thread are some guys who can tell me:

Did anybody try the EX1 with the Letus Extreme and the RED 18-50mm zoom?
 
lawriejaffa said:
"Downside the the HPX 500 is the quality of the chip is not at good as the EX1 and certainly miles away from the Red. It's not a true HD chip."

Hey Mister - thats subjective, and is a point of discussion that has been answered and clarified by Barry Green numerous times.

I find this bizarre discussion somewhat amusing, how one can honestly compare these cams is totally bizarre. Most folk see advantages and disadvantages to the EX with other hdv cams, or hvx etc etc.

Comparing the EX to the Red for feature films (if both can be comfortably afforded) is as sensical as comparing the hvx, or canon a1 to the Red...

Given the obvious naivity of the poster (in even thinking of spending such an amount on a red for a one man band to make primarily corporates) is reason enough to shake your head at this silly thread. In anycase, its obvious that if your primarily doing corporates and normal business, that the EX, or any of the other hdv cams would be fine - personally id go for the hvx for its filmlook preferences but that is subjective too naturally. As is also the reason im getting the HPX also, as its to me an ideal cross over from corporate to film projects. The EX will grab a sharp picture - no doubt there, but if your wanting to cross over to film and can afford a red - id be looking at 2/3 options such as the hpx, not the prosumer range...

That said and i mean no offence, given the impression of your first post, it may be a prosumer cam (that you can work and learn with) that would be your best start!
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I already shoot with the HPX-500, at work. A very nice camera, but (in my opinion) the image is still softer and noisier than I'd like. BTW I've shot some national spots in 35mm & 16mm as operator and DP and owned my own 16mm cameras- so I know a little something about which projects require a large crew and which don't. And, BTW, there are already quite a few one-man-bands, who are successfully using the Red in their business - so I don't think my question was that naive.

The primary reason I'm even considering the EX1 is because of its ability to resolve around 1K lines (according to reviews I've read.) If the camera was only resolving around the level of the HVX of HPX I wouldn't have asked the question.
 
philip bloom said:
Downside the the HPX 500 is the quality of the chip is not at good as the EX1 and certainly miles away from the Red. It's not a true HD chip.

I use and own many different cameras, the EX1 is startlingly good for it's price and sounds like the camera for you.
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Sorry Philip I know you meant the chip resolution here and not quality as that would be a little misleading. Ill defer to Barrys post on the rest.

Though certainly the image resolution of the EX1 is great. Might have trouble shooting a prime on it straight to camera though, or obtaining the same dynamic range, or having 4 independant channel audio with professional quality pre amps and controls and the list goes on etc etc. Im not trying to state these things in reference to what the EX1 cant do really, I just want to move the topic away from the HPX (which is pretty irrelevant anyway) , because it really is a professional broadcast camera in comparison. Ill let someone with Red experience debate its merits.

If all I considered when shooting was resolution then I dont even need an EX1 I could just grab the HV20. (but my 3 year old might be annoyed as she seems to have adopted it).
 
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