Night Exterior 35mm Film

F

FirstOD

Member
Lighting a night exterior in front of a house.

Largest light available will be a 5k fresnel, and as of right now it's 50/50.

If we can't get the 5k the next available is two 2k fresnels.

Think it can be done? If so how far do you think it will need to be?


No budget, so no crazy talk please.



thanks
 
You might consider googling "day for night" (the technique, not the classic film).

Basically you shoot in the day or evening, then darken (& often add a blue cast) in post. There's a lot to decide when doing this; sometimes the shot is done in the last half hour or so of twilight, burning in streetlights/windows/etc, and adding some key lights here & there. Some people underexpose & add some lights & filters. Some people just take regular daylight and change it in post. There's a fair amount of info out there.
 
You have the budget for 35mm film but no budget to light it?
Ken
the Screen Skins guy
 
First of all, (in your film) what zone do you wish the house exterior to fall within?

Second what film stock are you using? The faster the speed, the better you are, (although grain size will increase).

Third, what color is the exterior of the house. White would be best because it has the highest reflective value.

Fourth, how wide is your shot? Light has a significant falloff. Remember that doubling the distance of the light and subject will decrease illumination by 4x.
On the same token being able to move available lighting closer to the house may prove helpful as it will provide much more and much needed extra light. This basically means that if you don't have the means, your exteriors should not have any extreme wide or wide angles.

Fifth, what lenses are available to you? Prime super speeds would be best because they will be able to open up to wider apertures. If you have an all purpose zoom you might be stuck at a higher aperture when 'wide open'

Get back with additional details on the scene, shot sizes and other information.

-ryan
 
Michael Carter: Day for Night was my first thought, but my director is insisting on shooting it at night.

KPLO: It's a student short, the way my school works is if you get picked you are supplied with everything the school can spare, free of charge. That's the only reason we are shooting on 35mm. Most of our budget has been eaten up by locations, costumes, transportation rentals etc.

Ryan Patrick O'Hara: I don't understand what you mean by zone, can you clarify?
I get to pick the film stock, i haven't decided yet. The exterior of the house is a grayish/white sort of colour. The shot has to be wide enough for the talent to drive up in a car, exit, approach the door and enter the house. In still working it out with hte director though. We have 20-120mm Zoom, 18mm Prime, 35mm Prime.


There is now the possibility of getting a 1200watt HMI Par or a 1200watt HMI Fresnel. Think its better than the 5k?
 
FirstOD said:
Michael Carter: Day for Night was my first thought, but my director is insisting on shooting it at night.

KPLO: It's a student short, the way my school works is if you get picked you are supplied with everything the school can spare, free of charge. That's the only reason we are shooting on 35mm. Most of our budget has been eaten up by locations, costumes, transportation rentals etc.

Ryan Patrick O'Hara: I don't understand what you mean by zone, can you clarify?
I get to pick the film stock, i haven't decided yet. The exterior of the house is a grayish/white sort of colour. The shot has to be wide enough for the talent to drive up in a car, exit, approach the door and enter the house. In still working it out with hte director though. We have 20-120mm Zoom, 18mm Prime, 35mm Prime.


There is now the possibility of getting a 1200watt HMI Par or a 1200watt HMI Fresnel. Think its better than the 5k?
Click to expand...

The Zone system is a system based on exposure. It is a highly used way by photographers and directors of photography to establish a scale for exposure. It is as follows:

0- Total black (no negative density, except filmbase- fog density)
1- First step above absolute black; first visible density above filmbase-fog density.
2- Negative density sufficient to first receal some texture
3- Low shadow values with textural content
4- Normal shadow value on skin, dark foliage in sun, etc.
5- Middle gray ("pivot value"); 18% reflectance (the gray card)
6- Average (Caucasian) skin value (in sun or shade); about 36% reflectance
7- Light skin values; light gray objects
8- Highest value in which some texture is still discernable
9- Approaching pure white; no visible detail
-From Creative Control; Filmmaking and Cinematography by Michael Hofstien
Click to expand...
Something like this:
zonescale.png


Basically when I was asking which zone you wanted the house to appear, I was asking if it was lit as a dominant subject or if it was a subject in the background. Being one would be shot at appropriate exposure, while the other could be a bit darker yet discernible.

Because your house is white/gray colored you are a bit lucky. White and lighter gray have the highest value for reflected light. This simply means they will be easier to get a proper exposure vs a darker shade house.

What hurts is the fact you need wide shots. This will require that your light be spread upon a wider area, which will most likely require you to move back your lights or flood them. This in either way will reduce intensity of your light.

On the other side you have another positive fact. You get to choose your film stock. If you do not know already film stocks come in different speeds some requiring less light then others. These are fast speed film stocks. The only downside is that film grains will be larger resulting in a slightly grainier looking film.

You might be better off buying a faster stock for the exteriors and buying a slower stock for the interiors, as long as you have adequate lighting for the interiors.

Thanks for including what lenses you have but what is the minimal f-stop on each one? You only included the focal length when describing them. Assuming from what you told me, I am willing to bet your fastest lenses are the 18 and 35mm primes.

Last of all: HMI's tend to output more light per watts vs it's tungsten brothers. But I very much doubt the 1.2k HMI will output equal to a 5k frensel tungsten. They (HMI's) are also daylight. This means that you will have to choose more carefully with your film stock. Film stocks come rated in either daylight or tungsten. If you are lighting the exterior with just HMI's you would have to use daylight film. If you were to use tungsten light to light your exterior you would want tungsten balanced film stock. Of course you can use either film stock with the opposite lighting color balance and correct using a glass filter, but these will require more light for exposure.

EDIT: It's late and I tried to answer the best I could. If anything is unclear just let me know and I'll be glad to try again :) I'm just tired and not making sense anymore.
 
Thank so very much RYAN!

The house is more of a background subject. The scene is the final scene in the film and is meant to kinda show the characters falling in love with each other. They drive up in a white car, he gets out and opens her door for her then walks her to the door, they exchange a couple of lines and she enters the house.

Ive discussed having closer shots and completely getting rid of the driving up, instead just have them pulling into the drive way. As of right now the director is concidering it.

I was already considering the faster stocks for the exterior scenes and for many others. The film has a series of flash backs and I'm toying with the idea of shooting all the flashbacks on faster film stocks and all the stuff in the present on slower stocks.

I'm not sure, but i think the minimum f-stop on the 20-120 zoom is 2.3 and on the primes, maybe 1.4, but i'm unsure. I have very little experience with our 35mm lenses.

My plan was yo use the 5k gelled as moonlight and some of the available practicals. The house has 2 wall mounted fixtures on each side of the garage door, which i was going to put incandescent bulbs in and disguise a 1 or 2k soft light as the porch light. So, there will be a mixture of moonlight and tungsten light sources. Which film rating would be best for this?

Thanks for your help, Ryan.
 
As far as the film stock goes, I am not sure exactly what you will need. It all depends on how much you can light your scene.

Something you should remember is that a full CTB (the gel I assume you will be using) takes about 2 stops off! That means with a full CTB gel in front of your 5k, you will need 4 times the amount of light!

You could use a 1/2 CTB and only lose one stop, but that is still not helping your situation. This is just something to keep in mind. Those HMI's are certainly worth looking at because they emit the 5500/5600k color light without the need of a gel. The question is which is more powerful? HMI's and Tungsten lights are both rated in Watts but HMI's are much more efficient and cannot be compared watt to watt with tungsten. This is because HMI's direct more of it's energy consumption to the light, where the tungsten lamps lose much of this energy to the by product of heat.

So I guess you might want to look into the photometrics of each light. The 1.2k HMI's might be more powerful then a 5k tungsten with a 1/2 or full CTB.

Keep thinking about ways to overcome this challenge. There are many options and scenarios out there. Keep us updated with new ideas or possibilities
 
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Thank you very much for your help, Ryan! There is just so much they can't teach us in film school that we just need to go out and shoot to really learn. Your input has helped me very much, though.

I've done much research over the past week on this scene and I've devised 2 or 3 different ways of lighting it. I'm also looking in to acquiring some faster prime lenses.

Thank you.
 
Fast Film (5218). Fast Lens (Speeds). Get the unit as far back until it reads a 2.0 or so. Maybe rack it from the side. Are you emulating moonlight or streetlight. Will you be coloring on set or in post? I ask this because gelling cuts your light. If I'm staying at one color temp on my lights then I often color everything in post.

Get a spot meter. If the house is white, you maybe able to get the unit further back. Expose the house perhaps a stop above medium grey.

Another cheap alternative is to use Par Cans from a distance. I've lit a whole church with four par cans. They're cheap and look great.
 
from my experience 1.2k HMI par is roughly equivalent in output to a 5K tungsten fresnel, though a slight bit dimmer. I would recommend lighting the actors and house with smaller tungsten lights and using the ungelled HMI as a moon source for a kick/rim (or a key, depending on what the scene calls for).

Also, don't forget that the house doesn't need to be totally lit. Sticking a couple 1k fresnels, or even a 750 in the bushes and shining them on the wall to simulate garden lights could be more than enough to get the house exposed. Also, placing smaller lights again opal'd windows in the house could illuminate windows and further establish the house-ness of the house.
 
I've been away scouting locations since the 24th, but I'm glad to return to more suggestions.

Tim Naylor: I had decided on that exact stock last week! Have you had much experience with it? I've looked in to getting some faster primes, but I'm still waiting for a confirmation. The idea was to emulate moonlight, i had considered colouring in post, but we have some different colour temperatures and i fear our editor is not as skilled as I am. There is little chance of getting a spot meter, we'll most likely only have a standard light meter. I'm already pulling tons of strings with my school to get the primes, 2 extra rolls of film and extra equipment, but i'll see what i can do. Again, not sure about par cans.

SeanEmer: I'm a big fan of practical light sources, so my approach is to use as much of the available and realistic light sources as possible. Because this is a large, wealthy looking house we've decided to add many highlights in the lawn, path, porch and garage areas. Unfortunately, there are no visible windows, but I've already covered all the bases and i have back up plans.
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/member.php?u=250
Isaac Brody: I'll look in to them, but its doubtful. Thanks.


Thanks for the help, guys!

The shoot is about three weeks away and I feel great about it! Thanks to you guys of course!

Although I've DP'd several s16 shorts, this is my first 35mm and my first exterior location shoot.

Wish me luck!
 
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