Sony EX1 market plan: typical Sony

Stevet said:
Cineform has been considering adding component inputs to one of the portable Cineform recorders, but nothing has been confirmed yet. If that's the case, these may be a welcome capture solution for the HVX200 and other component out cameras such as the JVC HD100.

Their first version is supposed to offer HDMI to Compact Flash using their Cineform (well respected 4:2:2 10 bit) intraframe codec.
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Steve, component out of the US HVX is at 60i, so if shooting 24p, I am not sure if you can practically extract 24p (or 30p, etc) from that analogue source. It would probably be good to record 720p60, otherwise, you are going to have embedded 2:3 pull down in the 24p footage, with no meta data identifying/flagging repeat frames (as you would in an HD-SDI output, such as the Varicam/HPX), and unless there is frame recognition software to identify repeat frames, you will not extract true 24p footage. Perhaps someone can confirm my interpretation of the matter or correct me.
 
Stevet said:
Well, that's all about to change:
http://www.convergent-design.com/downloads/Flash XDR.pdf
http://www.cineform.com/products/CineFormRecorder.htm

The XDR will be available soon. The Cineform is still a year out. Also, you will need the a SDI>HDMI converter (such a BM HDLINK $399) for Cineform's first portatble recorder.

This is going to really open up things, especially for cameras such as Canon H1 & Sony EX1.
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Of course, one thing very helpful to know would be the price of this thing.

Because, let's be honest . . .

The more expensive it is, the less it makes sense to bother with it when there's already a camera which records intraframe 4:2:2 with no need for it to be tethered to anything.
 
David, less sense for you maybe. The differences in sensitivity, lcd, and res make it a sensible option for me. And let's not forget 10bit.
 
StMad said:
David, less sense for you maybe. The differences in sensitivity, lcd, and res make it a sensible option for me. And let's not forget 10bit.
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It makes less sense the higher the price point goes. If indeed the add-ons are going to be in $5K range or more, on top of the price of the EX1, you're moving into full-size 2/3" chip territory -- or at least close enough where a few extra bucks on top of THAT will get you into that territory.

Everyone's got their own set of needs and wants, of course.
 
StMad said:
That's been confirmed? Please point me to your reference.
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Based on Alain Chaix's discussion with a Sony engineer in France, who (reportedly) said:
"la sortie SDI (SD et HD) était bien en 10 bits (rien d'étonnant m'a t'il dit, vu que la norme SDI est sur 10 bits) mais que pour des raisons d'économie d'argent et de consommation électrique sur ce camescope, l'electronique qui gérait ce signal arrondissait ces calculs, d'où un signal réellement sur 8 bits avec 2 bits "vides"."

Alexander Ibrahim asked the same question of Sony reps at the Professional Products fair, and was told it's 8-bit data embedded in a 10-bit word.

Craig Seeman was told by a Sony rep at HD World Expo that it was 8 bits embedded in a 10-bit word.

Others have said it's straight-up 10 bit, so there's confusion on the issue. But for a Sony engineer to say it's 8-bit is telling, as is the notion that every other camcorder anywhere near this price range that uses SDI uses it at 8 bits. SDI is a 10-bit transport stream, but for reasons of economy the XH-G1, XL-H1, HD250, and EX1 all use an 8-bit word, with two zeroes to pad out the sequence. And the XLH1 and HD250 are even more expensive camcorders than the EX1.

So -- I won't know the definitive answer until I get my hands on one sometime in January, but I'd bet $100 cash money right now that the EX1's HD-SDI output is 8-bit embedded in a 10-bit word.
 
I think the Ex1 and HVX must have a greater price difference in the US. About $1k au ($850us) difference here. And moving up to 2/3 chips involves a whole lot more cost than just the cam.
 
Barry_Green said:
So -- I won't know the definitive answer until I get my hands on one sometime in January, but I'd bet $100 cash money right now that the EX1's HD-SDI output is 8-bit embedded in a 10-bit word.
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Hehe, I think I'll keep my $100. I've got an EX1 to save up for. :)
 
StMad said:
I think the Ex1 and HVX must have a greater price difference in the US. About $1k au ($850us) difference here. And moving up to 2/3 chips involves a whole lot more cost than just the cam.
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And it affects portability, too. There's a big calculus involved. I was pointing some of it out . . .
 
Stevet said:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820211244

Well, not sure if it is fast enough?

I imagine you would need CF with Extreme III specs. Which is what I bellieve the XDR flash recorder recommends. There should be a lot better options by the 2nd quarter of 2008.
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Interesting, but no, I wouldn't think it's of use for serious professional video. As much for reliability as anything. I've only ever heard one confirmed story of a CF card failing, and that was a cheap unbranded make - I wouldn't trust them. (And now neither does the guy it happened to!) Pro stills guys use high spec known brand and I've heard excellent reliability reports from them - one photographer I know even left a card in a shirt when it went through the washing machine, and it still worked fine!

I feel Extreme III hits a sweet price/performance spot (approx $200 for 16GB), and for the XDR, it would be fine for the 100Mbs codec (though downloads then wouldn't be much better than real time), but it would be on the limit for the 160Mbs mode, and I think you'd need something like Extreme IV.

As far as cost goes, then yes, the XDR adds something like $5,000 to the cost. But Extreme III CF cards are then a lot cheaper than SxS or P2 cards, so some of that $5,000 may be able to be clawed back in memory cost savings. And you get a device which has other uses.
 
Thinking more about the recorder, I wonder if 4:2:2 will make that much difference to me (maybe to potential clients). The gorgeous work we've seen from Macgregor and disjecta wasn't 4:2:2. Hmmm.

My feelings on the value of the EX1 haven't changed, but David I may be leaning to your side re the value of using the EX1's HD SDI. If the EX1's long gop rears its ugly head only once in a blue moon (obviously I'm speculating, but the evidence so far is comforting), and 4:2:2 is mostly beneficial for green screen work, my pennies might be better spent elsewhere. Much to be learnt when the products become available.
 
I've actually recorded the EX1's SDI output to ProRes 10bit via FCP and a Kona card. I'm not exactly sure how to discern if it's true 10 bit as I don't have an actual 10 bit monitor, but if anyone here feels like they have a logical method of determining the bit depth via post manipulation, pm me and I will send you a link to a short ProRes 10 bit clip to mess around with.
 
Elton,
David at Cineform has been asking for someone to post an EX1 10bit file (SDI).
Based on your earlier thoughts, it's probably not using all 10 bits, but it would not hurt to put this to rest.
 
David Jimerson said:
Of course, one thing very helpful to know would be the price of this thing.

Because, let's be honest . . .

The more expensive it is, the less it makes sense to bother with it when there's already a camera which records intraframe 4:2:2 with no need for it to be tethered to anything.
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Yes, but there's limited choices.
Adding a portable recorder is no different than everyone tethering LCD monitors and firestore drives.
 
I get that, Steve; as I always say, it's about what your priorities are.

My only point is, the reason to use these boxes isn't to get a longer recording time, as it was with the Firestore (and as is becoming largely irrelevant now), but to bypass 4:2:0 long-GOP. No one would pick a Firestore over the cards when the cards give sufficient recording time. (Well, no one sane.) But the 4:2:0 long-GOP will always need to be gotten around if what you want is 4:2:2 intraframe. The more expensive that gets, the more stark the other advantages of the EX1 must be in order to justify the cost.

If the advantages of the EX1 make it worth spending a few more grand and always recording to a tethered box, then so be it. Some may not think so; for many, the big advantage was the increased recording time on the SxS cards due to the codec, which is negated by bypassing it. But some may indeed think so.
 
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