What is the most convenient and professional hand held Doco camera

R

rudy

Member
I'm really sorry if this is the wrong spot to add this question. I've looked around this forum for ages trying to get an answer to this and there doesn't seem to be an answer (not recently answered anyway). Maybe I'm doing a male look, so please forgive me if the answer is right under my nose. :(

I'm looking at following someone around and creating a doco. It may never amount to anything serious, but who knows, it might. And if it does I'd like to think that it could be shown at cinema quality (not just DVD).

I don't want to be carrying all sorts of lenses, tripods or lights with me. I need to travel light. I just want one camera which will be hand held 99% of the time. I'll be filming in broad daylight in the hills of the Himalayas right through to dark open mines and sewers where we might just have a torch or street lights. Slow motion and low light (although maybe not always at the same time) will be a very important consideration for me.

The cost of the camera kit should ideally be under $15k. And I'll buy whatever PC/Mac machine and editing software on top of this afterwards (feel free to recommend editing solutions. At the moment I've been enjoying Vegas on PC, but I'm told I can't go past Final Cut on a Mac). I might even consider professional grading and post work if it ends up being particularly good.

From everything I've read on dvxuser, I really only have 2 choices. I should choose either the DVX100 (or is it DVX102 now?) or the HVX200. Now I know there are HEAPS of forums on both of these cameras, but my 'male look' didn't lead me to any DVX100 vs HVX200 forums.

From everything I've read, both would be more than adequate for me and it's probably asking the same as the pc/mac question (everyone has a different opinion), but I'm hoping there is a logical direction for me. The question is which would be the best choice with the least amount of mucking around. I don't have a film crew and I don't want to carry a lot of accessories. Which one would be the best solution for my particular situation?

Thanks for any input. And sorry that I couldn't find the best spot to ask this question.
 
Rudy: I am a documentary filmmaker, that's all I've done for nearly 40 years (except for an occasional commercial if the money's good) - I've had several films blown up to 35, albiet usually from 16 and super16. I hand hold so much that people ask me why I even bother to keep a tripod in my van...

Currently I'm shooting a feature doc with an HPX500 and an HVX200... I would not consider the 100 (although I like the camera), mainly because of aspect ratio - plus everyone (meaning distributors) expects HD now... I shoot 720/24pn to conserve card space...

You will find many opinions here and elsewhere in reference to your needs... here's mine...

The 200 is an okay documentary camera, but it's not well designed for hand holding long sequences - no "handycam" shape camera is - plus the 200 is pretty bad in low light... That's why I shoot 80% of the time with the HPX500, although it's body is extremely heavy (why it's so heavy I still don't understand).

But the 500 is outside of your budget needs... You could buy, or engineer, a shoulder mount for the 200 with a larger (ie Anton Bauer) battery mounted on the back.. but don't let anyone talk you into a mount with an extension that goes to the waist.. they're fine until you have to sit or get into a car while shooting, then you're screwed - and those things transmit breathing motion up from your stomach too - not good...

You will still have the low light issue to deal with, though... you can learn to live with it, or investigate some of the noise reduction post production options... or carry something like a small LitePanel that can be powered from the Anton Bauer battery Goldmount...

People here will jump on me for saying this, but up until six months ago I was shooting with a Canon XL H1, which I have modified slightly so it is very comfortable on the shoulder.. It worked very well, had better low light capabilities, and personally I never had any problems with HDV... In my current film,I have intercut Canon's 24f with the 720/24pn in FCP 6 and no one has noticed the difference... The security of tape rather than hauling hard drives through customs is a consideration too... So you do have other options...

Hope I haven't just further confused the issue...
 
Hmm, tough question...

The DVX is way more light sensitive.
The HVX is HD, which will look better projected.
SHooting DV with either camera allows you to use cheap DV tape for hours of material.
Using P2 will require a in-the field copy & backup system.
The HVX has variable framerates.
The HVX is 16:9 native.
The DVX is lighter.

So there are some very strong points for both cameras. You have to decide what is most important to your application.

For 15k you can get a lot of important accesories with either camera to make up for shortcomings from both sides.
For example, you can get a Firestore or a P2-Store to ease the shooting time limits of P2. You can also get a nice light on-camera light for the HVX for those darker sports too.


Don't forget audio, audio, audio. It's MUCH more important than which camera you use.

- Mikko
 
We just shot a feature-length doc using the HVX & a Firestore. It was solid, my first feature and it was even international, only lost one shot, every thing else looks beautiful.
 
What about considering a Canon HV20, its light and tape based. You mentioned only considering buying a computer later so maybe tape would be the way to go, its always easy to buy more tape in Nepal but P2 cards I don't think so
 
Hv20

Hv20

Thanks for your replies guys. It's sounding like the HVX200 might be the one so far.

I did consider the Canon HV20 as well. There are a lot of people saying a lot of good things about it, but isn't this a little too much of a 'consumer' camera? Doesn't the price say something about 'you get what you pay for'? The small size (and small price tag) scared my a little... but I guess I'm still open to the idea?

I appreciate the sound, sound, sound comment as well. Actually does anyone know how they keep up the quality of sound on shows like the Amazing Race? I never see any mic's attached to any of the people?

Rudy...
 
Canon XL-a1. If you have money for P2 go for it. But for a DOcumentary, I would seriously consider that camera vs the HV20. Manual controls, better Lens, 3ccd's, etc.
 
I just came back from shooting a doc on the HVX for a month in a VERY remote overseas location. In that time we shot 2 TB of data, filling 9 hard-drives.

For this shoot it was only myself (director/DoP) and the writer. We had about half a tonne of grip, lighting, and camera support. The footage looks frickin amazing (though I'm a bit biased :-) ).

Usually we shot between an hour and two of video (onto four 16-gig P2) per day. At lunchtime I would dump the P2s to external HDs via laptop (with two backups), and then do the same in the evening after an afternoon of shooting. Dumping the P2s, making backup copies, and verifying the data is very time intensive. Logging is very quick and easy though.

The HVX is a HEAVY camera. The DVX feels like a toy in comparison. It also requires a lot of attention to make sure the exposure is right and that its in focus -- focus is very critical on the HVX. However once you get the hang of making the adjustments it becomes second nature and can do it quite quickly (much more quickly than relying on the autofocus or autoexposure.)

You WILL want a tripod. Trust me. You'll be kicking yourself for not bringing one.

I made a rig for lighting underground (mines). It's a gel-cell motorcycle battery ($30), Triplite Inverter ($50), and some fluorescent lamps with clip mounts ($20 each). Everything fits in a small pouch, and I can make almost 1000 tungsten watts of daylight for a couple hours. It only took about half a day to assemble.

For sound we had a couple wired lavs, a wireless lav, and long shotgun. Usually the shotgun went into one channel, and the lav into the other (if I was interviewing). The HVX records the onboard mics to tracks 3 and 4, which is great for grabbing a loop of stereo room-tone during editing. It doesn't sound like you'll need a sound-guy (I rarely use one). You will want a good shotgun with a furry windshield.

That's my recent experience with shooting a doc with the HVX. Shooting without all the support equipment would be a challenge, but I'm sure is done quite often.
 
completely mobile

completely mobile

Remember I need to be completely mobile. I won't have rigging with me. I doubt whether I'll have the ability to carry around a bike battery for a light either. Maybe I'm hoping for the impossible.

Did anyone have any ideas about the Amazing Race guys? How do they record their sound 'on the run?' I never see any mics.

Merry Christmas by the way (it just turned midnight here!). :)
Regards
Rudy...
 
If you need low-light performance and you don't have a crew, I think the HVX200 by itself is probably the wrong choice for you. I have one and love it, but I wouldn't use it to shoot in a nightclub, much less a mine. Of course, you could get it and also get a "cheapie" second HD camera for your night stuff (plus a Vidled), and still stay within your budget.
The slow motion on the HVX is REALLY nice. Much better than you could get with a HDV cam with tweening in post.
 
the sony V1U can do something ungodly, like 150 frames a second? but the thing is that it loads it all in to a buffer, so A) it's at regular DV resolution or worse and B) there's no adjustment and C) it's really hard to get and it only does one second at a time.

We did a shot where a photo frame hits the wall and shatters and we had to do it like 10 times to figure out the timing (you press the button, the record light flashes three times and THEN it takes its one second of footage, then it spends another few seconds writing that buffer to tape) so it's a lot of trial and error.

Although it was like 2.5x faster than he HVX, I'd still stick with the HVX just because of the quality and consistency of the slomo. I'd rather slow 60fps down to 120fps than shoot 150fps to tape at DV or 320x240, then speed it up slightly AND blow it up as well. Both will look bad, but the HVX's footage would hold up better, IMO.
 
rudy: crews with budgets like AMAZING RACE have many options that you don't.. biggest being in the audio department where there is/are experienced audio recordist(s) who do nothing but monitor and tweak location audio and have a variety of (mostly shotgun) mikes to chose from.

My lightweight package is generally: an HVX, six 16g P2 cards, matte box & half a dozen filters, two of the small LitePanels with their own batteries, a Sennheiser 416 with a Softie on a pole with a Sennheiser or Lectronics wireless transmitter, a wireless receiver on the camera, an AT shotgun on the nose with a good windscreen, two tiny stands for the lights, a monopod (which works well with the HVX for interviews and even some exterior shooting), an assortment of audio cables, and a sh__load of AA and 9v batteries...

Of course back at the hotel are various battery chargers, an older PowerBook with a P2 friendly slot and about 4 to 6 hard drives...

If I can I substitute the HPX500 because it is a way more versatle camera, but less convenient to carry on to an airplane or shoot with in a car...
 
I'm in the middle of a feature length music documentary. So far we've been shooting in the UK, NY, and LA, and in the coming months will be shooting in Brazil and Germany as well. I'm sure this doco will be seen on the big screen.

I decided to use both the HVX-200 and the DVX-100b in stretch mode. The aspect ratio will match fine. The resolution difference will be motivated by story/content so I'm not so worried about that. The project will be textured and rich with several different formats (as many documentaries are). All of the footage will all be up-converted to 10-bit HD-CAM SR and color graded for finish. Not sure if we'll do a film out or not... probably stay in the digital realm, this depends on what kind of distribution the doco will get.

We're shooting all of the talking head interviews in 720p/n (lot's of footage/space saver)

We're shooting all of the wide establishing shots in 1080p/n (wide shots need a little help resolution wise to hold up on the big screen)


We're shooting MOST of the concert verite' with the DVX-100b (the dvx give me the extra stop + that I need to shoot in low light situations. The HVX simply cannot compete with dvx in low-light category : (

I chose not to use shoulder mount cameras for two reasons.

1. It's challenging enough to be "invisible" or incognito when you're shooting with a small camera... if you've got a big shoulder mount camera it becomes even more challenging. All of the sudden everyone within a stones throw becomes self-conscious and is asking themselves and others "oh I wonder who's filming here" and then everyone starts "acting". All of the sudden you're shooting a reality TV show. IMHO being small and discreet is one of the most important aspects to documentary filmmaking.

2. Getting the camera into very small and awkward places becomes almost impossible... especially when you're on the fly and need to get a shot immediately.

Just my two cents.

Getting an HVX-200 and a used dvx-100 is within your budget
 
pmark23 said:
I made a rig for lighting underground (mines). It's a gel-cell motorcycle battery ($30), Triplite Inverter ($50), and some fluorescent lamps with clip mounts ($20 each). Everything fits in a small pouch, and I can make almost 1000 tungsten watts of daylight for a couple hours. It only took about half a day to assemble.
Click to expand...

pmark23,

Any chance you can post a picture of your fluorescent lighting rig and/or identify the clip mount lamps? Thanks!
 
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